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Post by BearMkt on Dec 23, 2021 1:28:26 GMT
I'm conflicted by rising hysteria over the new variant. I thought and believed that once I was "fully vaccinated" I was protected and would be safe walking around without a mask. Now mask mandates are being re-instituted, and the booster is highly recommended. People with sniffles are getting tested left and right. I just don't know what to believe anymore and I know many others feel the same way.
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Post by gman57 on Dec 23, 2021 1:33:36 GMT
You're probably fine. If you do get it it'll most likely be mild. The masks (and mandates) as I see it are to try and protect the unvaccinated. Maybe we shouldn't? I'll try and protect them as some have their reasons for what they do. It also could help limit the workload on the medical community.
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Post by Chahta on Dec 23, 2021 1:48:24 GMT
Hey Bear, I am in CA for XMAS where they have put a mask mandate back in place. No mask mandate in my own state. What is the difference? I don’t wear one anywhere except on planes/airports since I am triple vaxed.
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Post by BearMkt on Dec 23, 2021 2:02:43 GMT
Hey Bear, I am in CA for XMAS where they have put a mask mandate back in place. No mask mandate in my own state. What is the difference? I don’t wear one anywhere except on planes/airports since I am triple vaxed. Merry Christmas Chahta. I'm only double vaxed and have always only worn a mask when I had to. Many of my friends, neighbors, and family members have tested positive for Covid. I think I've had it too but just didn't get tested. I guess I need to "get in line" for the 3rd shot and whatever else I'm pressured to do.
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Post by roi2020 on Dec 23, 2021 2:05:32 GMT
The Omicron variant is very transmissable. Covid-19 protection wanes several months after one is "fully vaccinated." It is a good idea to get a booster shot when one is eligible to receive it. This will decrease transmissibility of the disease and prevent hospitalizations or death. Omicron is spreading rapidly throughout the United States.
"Nationwide hospitalizations are only up a modest 13% and deaths continue to remain “low” at 1,351 deaths per day. But severe disease patterns lag cases 3-4 weeks, so we will see what happens in a few weeks. While I expect an uptick, I certainly don’t think we will reach levels like we saw in the past thanks to our vaccines and adaptive immune systems." For those interested in Covid-19 science who would like to avoid the hysteria/political BS, you may like the Your Local Epidemiologist blog (quoted above).
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Post by retiredat48 on Dec 23, 2021 3:22:41 GMT
I'm conflicted by rising hysteria over the new variant. I thought and believed that once I was "fully vaccinated" I was protected and would be safe walking around without a mask. Now mask mandates are being re-instituted, and the booster is highly recommended. People with sniffles are getting tested left and right. I just don't know what to believe anymore and I know many others feel the same way. You have never been "protected." The vaccine efficacy for Pfizer after two shots was, by testing people, 95%. Not 100%. Further, the vaccine antibodies decline over time. Pfizer is below 50% after 6 months...thus the encouraging of a booster shot. I posted about my antibody tests, before and after booster shots, on the off-topic forum, here: big-bang-investors.proboards.com/thread/1075/antibodies-results-before-after-boosterI had lost most of my antibodies after 8 months...boosted greatly after the booster. But with Omicron, boosted people can and do have "breakthrough" infections, but the severity is much less if vaccinated. Some have died, such as Colin Powell. R48
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Post by anitya on Dec 23, 2021 3:39:29 GMT
Please do all you can to decrease Covid related load on the hospitals and health care system and spread of the virus. Why?
Now more people are dying or suffering from chronic conditions because they deferred maintenance while the health care system is overwhelmed by the so called freedom lovers, who ironically ask for vaccines when they are in ER or ICU.
My closest friend died this year of stomach cancer and was not diagnosed until stage 4.
Another friend was recently diagnosed with stage 4 and now fighting to live. Both these guys are 55 yr olds with no family history of cancers.
I went to the doc for my annual physical after 2 years so I can get the referrals for lab tests. Then Omicron started to rage. Now I am not particularly enthusiastic about going to the lab and potentially picking up the virus there when I have to take care of my parents.
I am not ashamed to say I am triple vaccinated and mask everywhere, whether mandated or not. Different people have different thresholds and so I understand those that are tired of caring.
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Post by fred495 on Dec 23, 2021 4:35:38 GMT
Sorry about your loss, anitya.
I don't know how dire the situation is or will be in our hospital's intensive care units due to the new Omicron variant. But, if people refuse to be vaccinated for whatever ideological or religious beliefs, and get seriously infected with Covid, they should not be given priority over cancer patients, for example, or other patients with life threatening diseases. They should take a number and get in line and wait their turn to be admitted.
Their anti-social behavior should not be rewarded with special or preferential treatment.
Just sayin',
Fred
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Omicron
Dec 23, 2021 5:36:04 GMT
via mobile
Post by Chahta on Dec 23, 2021 5:36:04 GMT
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Post by anitya on Dec 23, 2021 6:56:23 GMT
Sorry about your loss, anitya. I don't know how dire the situation is or will be in our hospital's intensive care units due to the new Omicron variant. But, if people refuse to be vaccinated for whatever ideological or religious beliefs, and get seriously infected with Covid, they should not be given priority over cancer patients, for example, or other patients with life threatening diseases. They should take a number and get in line and wait their turn to be admitted. Their anti-social behavior should not be rewarded with special or preferential treatment. Just sayin', Fred In life whoever has a sense of entitlement seems to get rewarded. We can not completely blame the general public for their ignorance when even a minority of health care workers were fighting not to get vaccinated and continue to work, even though the same healthcare workers had all the other vaccines and more. The reason for these health care workers gamble is (1) the wide dispersion in how the Covid virus effected its hosts and the miracle of modern medicines and disease management techniques, and (2) the knowledge / certainty that when they get Covid, they will get top notch care plus they will for sure get the monoclonal antibody treatment ASAP. Same with politicians. It is unfortunate that the virus does not effect everybody the same or similarly, prompting some irrational risk takers (outside healthcare profession) by extension to gamble theirs' and others' life. For those that always look for the outlier example, some infected are even asymptomatic. So, it is the suicide bombers and the bystanders that pay the price while the puppeteers live an entitled life. P.S.: As I had mentioned in this forum before, one of my first cousins I grew up with died from Covid. Poor guy caught Covid within a day or two of getting the vaccine and he thought he was experiencing side effects from the vaccine and did not get tested or seek medical help quick enough. I have too many physicians in my friends and family circle and some even run hospitals. What I learned from them is, given the number of other medicines, including analgesics, people take and how those medicines are made, healthcare workers should be asked to swear off all the other medicines they take before granting them religious exemption, if one was designed in a non-political, scientific manner. Truly, only the Amish probably qualify for an objectively designed religious exemption from Covid vaccine.
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Post by johntaylor on Dec 23, 2021 15:29:28 GMT
CDC found the typical covid-19 death came with 2.4 other co-morbid conditions, so an interesting question whether antivax folks are more of a social burden than all the exogenously obese people at burger joints offloading future medical bills onto the physically fit members of a health insurance plan.
You can believe in vaccine science while also recognizing that America's historic strength was freedom. If you give away almost any freedom to almost any government in the world, you are unlikely to have it again.
Isn't it part of human nature to want some control? The rationale for abortion, most health privacy law, and so forth has been "My Body, My Choice, My Privacy" but for vaccines and covid shots not so, so the debate gets complicated.
From July to October 2020, politicans then out of power suggested that politicians in power could not be trusted on vaccines. Then the roles reversed. This infection by politics was exacerbated by covid in an election yr.
The legal situation involved the Vaccine Act of 1986 and what the Sup Ct said in 2011. Liability arguments about side-effects are aspects of widespread vaccine programs.
About 650,000 die every yr in the US from heart disease. Nobody knows how Omicron will play out, but thus far the death count has been low.
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Post by steadyeddy on Dec 23, 2021 16:14:46 GMT
CDC found the typical covid-19 death came with 2.4 other co-morbid conditions, so an interesting question whether antivax folks are more of a social burden than all the exogenously obese people at burger joints offloading future medical bills onto the physically fit members of a health insurance plan. You can believe in vaccine science while also recognizing that America's historic strength was freedom. If you give away almost any freedom to almost any government in the world, you are unlikely to have it again. Isn't it part of human nature to want some control? The rationale for abortion, most health privacy law, and so forth has been "My Body, My Choice, My Privacy" but for vaccines and covid shots not so, so the debate gets complicated. From July to October 2020, politicans then out of power suggested that politicians in power could not be trusted on vaccines. Then the roles reversed. This infection by politics was exacerbated by covid in an election yr. The legal situation involved the Vaccine Act of 1986 and what the Sup Ct said in 2011. Liability arguments about side-effects are aspects of widespread vaccine programs. About 650,000 die every yr in the US from heart disease. Nobody knows how Omicron will play out, but thus far the death count has been low. johntaylor, I completely agree with you. Freedom over mandates, choice over compliance. Blue, Red and White!!
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Post by Norbert on Dec 23, 2021 17:06:07 GMT
Hmmm. So, if we put all the exogenously obese people in special camps, many problems would be solved.
Am not sure if the courts would approve mass incarceration based on body type, but maybe it's worth considering?
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Post by bugman on Dec 23, 2021 17:52:34 GMT
I will stay out of the covid political football game going on and just render a non-medical scientist's POV. Omicron is interesting as it "thus far" seems to be a milder disease infecting the upper respiratory track vs delta's lung specificity and associated lethality. I emphasize thus far, as this early patient data is coming from a younger population in Africa and may not be totally applicable to the US, but it's data nonetheless. If this holds true here, omicron might be great news to the unvaxed as this version spreads VERY quickly and will in effect, be the vaccination mechanism that will provide a degree of immunity moving forward without the mortality. What does this mean to the markets, who knows but I see the following playing out. 1. There is going to be a very large number of sick out for several weeks (guess 3 weeks) during the next couple months. This will cause economic ripples I'm sure, but long term might be beneficial to the covid reduction effort in a perverse way. We will finally achieve hurd immunity at a very high human cost. 2. More citizens will certainly perish, but they will be concentrated among the unvaccinated. Their freedom their choice I guess, but as each individual makes their choice they will undoubtedly infect others along the way. 3. The Omicron variant will mutate again soon, if not already, and let's just hope that it does not become as deadly as delta was, or all bets are off on containing it without massive human loss. We'll see how this plays out within the first week or two after Christmas. Hospitals are going to be slammed for the next 2 months as this surges through the population. Hope you got your elective surgeries done last summer
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Post by fred495 on Dec 23, 2021 18:28:29 GMT
steadyeddie said: "johntaylor, I completely agree with you. Freedom over mandates, choice over compliance. Blue, Red and White!!"
eddie, you are free to do what you want, provided you don’t hurt or harm or cause loss to others. That's as American as apple pie. Freedom is not an unconditional right.
Fred
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Post by Norbert on Dec 23, 2021 19:17:43 GMT
steadyeddie said: "johntaylor, I completely agree with you. Freedom over mandates, choice over compliance. Blue, Red and White!!" eddie, you are free to do what you want, provided you don’t hurt or harm or cause loss to others. That's as American as apple pie. Fredom is not an unconditional right. Fred Sure, but please don't forget what johntaylor asked: "... an interesting question whether antivax folks are more of a social burden than all the exogenously obese people at burger joints offloading future medical bills onto the physically fit members of a health insurance plan." The exogenously obese people may be causing greater harm or loss than the anti-vaxxers. Plus they're the ones most exposed to COVID.
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Omicron
Dec 23, 2021 19:59:08 GMT
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Post by Chahta on Dec 23, 2021 19:59:08 GMT
It is too bad that covid has become so political. MSM and certain politicians have created hate and blame for those that don’t agree with them. The reality is if you are vaxed you are protected and not going to die. To vilify and blame those that don’t agree with your choice is wrong.
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Post by gman57 on Dec 24, 2021 0:04:38 GMT
steadyeddie said: "johntaylor, I completely agree with you. Freedom over mandates, choice over compliance. Blue, Red and White!!" eddie, you are free to do what you want, provided you don’t hurt or harm or cause loss to others. That's as American as apple pie. Fredom is not an unconditional right. Fred Sure, but please don't forget what johntaylor asked: "... an interesting question whether antivax folks are more of a social burden than all the exogenously obese people at burger joints offloading future medical bills onto the physically fit members of a health insurance plan." The exogenously obese people may be causing greater harm or loss than the anti-vaxxers. Plus they're the ones most exposed to COVID. Did someone say rabbit hole?? What about those damn smokers, and don't get me started on people that don't wear seatbelts. Plus you have those nuts riding around on motorcycles and some WITHOUT helmets. Let's not forget you're more likely to die if there is a gun in your house.... you get the picture?
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Post by fred495 on Dec 24, 2021 2:22:52 GMT
gman said: "What about those damn smokers, and don't get me started on people that don't wear seatbelts. Plus you have those nuts riding around on motorcycles and some WITHOUT helmets. Let's not forget you're more likely to die if there is a gun in your house.... you get the picture?"
Maybe, you are missing the full picture, gman. Neither smokers, nor drivers who don't wear seatbelts, or motorcycle riders without helmets, or obese people have ever overloaded our hospitals to the point where the national guard has to be called in for emergency assistance in some of the states with the highest infection rates.
If the majority of Americans had refused to get vaccinated against Covid, our health care system would have already collapsed and millions of Americans would have needlessly died or suffered the devastating consequences of long haul Covid.
Let's not forget that this is a once in a life time global pandemic. We are incredibly lucky to have developed almost simultaneously a quite effective vaccine (mRNA) in Germany and here in the US in such a short time.
Fred
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Post by gman57 on Dec 24, 2021 2:43:33 GMT
I was responding to this:
"... an interesting question whether antivax folks are more of a social burden than all the exogenously obese people at burger joints offloading future medical bills onto the physically fit members of a health insurance plan."
I just added smokers, motorcyclist etc... aka: rabbit hole or whataboutism I totally agree... got my three shots asap and wear a mask everyplace I go. If everyone did we'd be closer to putting this behind us IMHO. I have a relative who shall we say is not in love with western medicine and didn't get the vax. I disagree with it but they have a right to their view until I become king.
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Post by fred495 on Dec 24, 2021 2:50:08 GMT
gman said: "I have a relative who shall we say is not in love with western medicine and didn't get the vax. I disagree with it but they have a right to their view until I become king."
Well said, gman. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
Fred
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Omicron
Dec 24, 2021 3:33:00 GMT
via mobile
sgra likes this
Post by Norbert on Dec 24, 2021 3:33:00 GMT
For the record, I'm completely sympathetic to anti-vaxxers, as long as they agree to never leave their homes and interact with others.
Am getting a Pfizer booster shot on the 5th before coming to the US.
Don't understand how Covid got politicized. Maybe the mask issue. I wear a mask in shops, but mainly to be polite. It's vaccinations and the new pills for those infected that will end the pandemic.
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Omicron
Dec 24, 2021 3:45:03 GMT
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Post by Chahta on Dec 24, 2021 3:45:03 GMT
I’m not sure vaccines will stop anything. A vaccine is doing nothing more than chasing what strain is active now, while the virus mutates. Flu vaccines have stopped nothing but the person vaxed from getting seriously sick.
I would explain why covid was politicized but won’t go political on the thread.
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Post by johntaylor on Dec 25, 2021 17:21:12 GMT
A recent item:
"The editor of The Lancet - one of the world's most prestigious medical journals - has admitted that he knew about a controversial researcher's conflicts of interest when he published a letter denouncing the Covid lab leak theory, and called anyone who questioned it a conspiracy theorist. 'It took us over a year to persuade him to declare his full competing interest, which we eventually did in June of this year,' admitted Lancet editor Dr. Richard Horton during testimony in front of UK Parliament's Science and Technology Select Committee, referring to NIH-funded Peter Daszak of Ecohealth Alliance. It took The Lancet 16 months to publish an official conflict of interest statement acknowledging Daszak's ties to the Wuhan Institute of Technology."
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Post by bb2 on Dec 28, 2021 20:35:52 GMT
Here is some reading on the Wuhan lab release situation. (I posted this on the previously deleted thread on the Wuhan topic, just before the thread went missing.) A quick summary first, with links to follow: ============================================== Accidental releases of bugs from labs has long been a problem. Wikipedia has an entry listing many releases. Gain of Function research is controversial. The NIH, after a suspension of GOF funding in 2014, restarted it in 2017 under a new policy, which is now under fresh scrutiny. Covid may indeed have been created in Wuhan and accidentally released but there's no solid proof that anyone is making public. The science of whether Covid-19 is naturally occurring or man made is subject to opinion at this point, from what I can tell. Links and quotes.......... (And of course, do your own due diligence, as always.) On Previous lab releases: ============================================================= en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_laboratory_biosecurity_incidentswww.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/3/20/18260669/deadly-pathogens-escape-lab-smallpox-bird-fluBBC news piece on the whether covid was released from the Wuhan lab: ==================================================================== www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57268111"We do need to be a bit patient but we also need to be diplomatic. We can't do this without support from China. It needs to be a no-blame environment," Prof Dale Fisher, of Singapore's National University Hospital, told the BBC." This gives recent history of US NIH Gain of Function policy...... ============================================================= www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00210-5"In 2014, after a series of accidents involving mishandled pathogens at the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the NIH announced that it would stop funding gain-of-function research into certain viruses — including influenza, severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) and Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) —" "The government reversed course in January 2017 after the NSABB concluded that very few such experiments posed a risk to public safety. The NIH lifted its ban on funding gain-of-function research in December 2017, after the HHS and the White House developed a system for vetting proposed experiments — creating the expert panel in the process." "Tom Inglesby, director of the Center for Health Security at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore, Maryland, said at the meeting on 23 January. “That doesn’t seem like a good process.” He urged the committee to reconsider the need for such work, arguing that its benefits are not “widely proven”." This discusses GOF, it's background and alternatives...... ============================================================= www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK285579/On evidence Covid-19 was natural or not.... (Conflicting views.) ============================================== www.reuters.com/world/us/us-republican-report-says-coronavirus-leaked-chinese-lab-scientists-still-2021-08-02/www.news-medical.net/news/20210217/The-origin-of-SARS-CoV-2-furin-cleavage-site-remains-a-mystery.aspx"This insertion could have occurred by random insertion mutation, recombination or by laboratory insertion. The researchers say the possibility of random insertion is too low to explain the origin of this motif." pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33340798/"Furin cleavage sites occurred independently for multiple times in the evolution of the coronavirus family, supporting the natural occurring hypothesis of SARS-CoV-2."
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Post by gman57 on Dec 29, 2021 0:31:51 GMT
To put all of that another way..... Nobody knows.
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Post by steadyeddy on Dec 29, 2021 0:46:17 GMT
The proverbial cat has been out of the bag... whose bag? No one talks but everyone knows..
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Post by BearMkt on Dec 30, 2021 1:44:03 GMT
The lines at testing sites are unbearably long as everyone who has a runny nose is running to get tested. Is all this testing really productive? I usually just stay home when I'm not feeling well.
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Post by Chahta on Dec 30, 2021 13:20:09 GMT
BearMkt, many in this country have "herd mentality".
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Post by johntaylor on Dec 30, 2021 15:05:40 GMT
Past 2 yrs coulda been a chapter in Nobel-winner Canetti's book, Crowds and Power
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