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Post by rhythmmethod on Nov 2, 2021 16:22:13 GMT
Okay, this one as well has been on my CEF radar for a while. I've been lucky (so far) not skillful in my CEF purchases of PTY and GOF. GOF is only a small portion of what I could expect to own. RIV offers a high dist. and based on equity as opposed to FI. I'm looking to have a total of 5 (B&H) to equal about 10-15% as a boost of income. I currently have three, FPF, PTY and GOF. I'm okay with taking some small positions just so I see them every morning. I'm very lucky to have money rolling in, in excess of needs. I'm looking to create future income with that income. Thoughts? TIA - RM
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Post by uncleharley on Nov 2, 2021 17:46:35 GMT
I owned a position in RIV until the premium became quite high and I sold it thinking that booked profits might be better than future distributions. The price has adjusted to the NAV since then making it more attractive than it once was. I would hesitate to invest in it at this point in an economic and stock cycle. I would rather own it when we are coming out of a bear market than after a prolonged bull run. Technically, the daily chart looks weak. It's distribution history is attractive. jmho
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Post by rhythmmethod on Nov 2, 2021 18:42:15 GMT
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Post by steelpony10 on Nov 2, 2021 19:30:17 GMT
Okay, this one as well has been on my CEF radar for a while. I've been lucky (so far) not skillful in my CEF purchases of PTY and GOF. GOF is only a small portion of what I could expect to own. RIV offers a high dist. and based on equity as opposed to FI. I'm looking to have a total of 5 (B&H) to equal about 10-15% as a boost of income. I currently have three, FPF, PTY and GOF. I'm okay with taking some small positions just so I see them every morning. I'm very lucky to have money rolling in, in excess of needs. I'm looking to create future income with that income. Thoughts? TIA - RM Ha. Ha, your too green to reach for yield. We’ve had RIV since inception and are considering RSF the new finance sector CEF It’s a managed CEF different from your others pledging to keep you with distributions of about 12%. I think a better strategy is to choose a distribution you can live with and purchase the shares to just distribute that amount. The dollar amount required to do that is higher for PTY then GOF. FPF would require the most. So chose the total dollars (dollars are easier to see percentages obscure what’s happening and where) you want to commit to CEF’s maybe with some slop. For example 55k. Most will go to FPF then PTY, GOF and RIV. You’ll allow for distribution variances and commit more to the ones with longer records and less to reaching for yield. Our 8% holding has three time the cash committed then our lowest value CEF. You’ll see why next correction or major market swoon. |
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Post by rhythmmethod on Nov 2, 2021 21:39:49 GMT
Okay, this one as well has been on my CEF radar for a while. I've been lucky (so far) not skillful in my CEF purchases of PTY and GOF. GOF is only a small portion of what I could expect to own. RIV offers a high dist. and based on equity as opposed to FI. I'm looking to have a total of 5 (B&H) to equal about 10-15% as a boost of income. I currently have three, FPF, PTY and GOF. I'm okay with taking some small positions just so I see them every morning. I'm very lucky to have money rolling in, in excess of needs. I'm looking to create future income with that income. Thoughts? TIA - RM Ha. Ha, your too green to reach for yield. We’ve had RIV since inception and are considering RSF the new finance sector CEF It’s a managed CEF different from your others pledging to keep you with distributions of about 12%. I think a better strategy is to choose a distribution you can live with and purchase the shares to just distribute that amount. The dollar amount required to do that is higher for PTY then GOF. FPF would require the most. So chose the total dollars (dollars are easier to see percentages obscure what’s happening and where) you want to commit to CEF’s maybe with some slop. For example 55k. Most will go to FPF then PTY, GOF and RIV. You’ll allow for distribution variances and commit more to the ones with longer records and less to reaching for yield. Our 8% holding has three time the cash committed then our lowest value CEF. You’ll see why next correction or major market swoon. Makes sense to me. What you described is pretty much where I am. I started collecting FPF in March/April of 2020. It's by far my largest CEF holding. PTY is next and I could easily add to it in the future. GOF is by far the smallest. I'm waiting for the deal to finalize and may take a look at PDI in the future. I have some extra cash from gigging I didn't expect, and thought I buy more yield with it. But I'll wait before adding another horse/(hopefully not pig to the stable). I'll begin to research RIV. Thanks. |
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Post by steelpony10 on Nov 2, 2021 22:00:55 GMT
rhythmmethod , Keep the distributions the same. Helps avoid trouble when you’re farther out on the greed branch where it gets thinner. We simply projected a 3% compounded inflation rate for our supplemental yearly needs added another 10% to arrive at the desired distribution and to allow for variances. SS covers 2% a year we figured at the time. So getting 8-9% drowns you in riches with little stress other then factual real events.
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Post by Capital on Nov 2, 2021 22:40:38 GMT
The fund has about 60% of its assets in CEFs, 4% in BDCs and BDC Notes and 22% in SPACs.
Of note is its 12% short positions - 2% iShares Russell 1000 Growth ETF, 3% iShares iBoxx HY Corporate Bond Fund and 17% SPDR S&P 500 EFT Trust.
I find the ROC bothersome - almost 2/3 of the 11% distribution.
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Post by rhythmmethod on Nov 2, 2021 23:46:31 GMT
Capital, I agree. It's out of my current league. I appreciate your comments!
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Post by Chahta on Nov 3, 2021 1:19:32 GMT
Okay, this one as well has been on my CEF radar for a while. I've been lucky (so far) not skillful in my CEF purchases of PTY and GOF. GOF is only a small portion of what I could expect to own. RIV offers a high dist. and based on equity as opposed to FI. I'm looking to have a total of 5 (B&H) to equal about 10-15% as a boost of income. I currently have three, FPF, PTY and GOF. I'm okay with taking some small positions just so I see them every morning. I'm very lucky to have money rolling in, in excess of needs. I'm looking to create future income with that income. Thoughts? TIA - RM The M* link posted in the “this guy doesn’t like CEFs” thread drew my attention to equity CEFs. It’s interesting that the distributions come from yield, CG and ROC, obviously since equities do not yield 7%. My question would be once equities are not growing so well as they have for 10 years what happens to the distributions? Food for thought. |
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Post by steelpony10 on Nov 3, 2021 1:44:21 GMT
There’s good and bad return of capital. Research that. So for countless times the market is overvalued, we’re due for a correction, HY bond funds are full of junk and the only facts I see right now are conventional bonds have negative returns, AMZN is still undervalued, cash returns are always negative and everyone is fully allocated and diversified in everything until tomorrow. One poster has 50 funds and all the reasons why he may have multiple holdings of AMZN and countless others. 😂😂😂😂
The fact that RIV is so diversified across a wide range of positions was the attraction for us and is why we’ve received 11-12k in yearly cash per 100k to date. We don’t trade but we replace anything for a perceived better situation and the only way our CEF’s will be spent down is for LTC. In 4 more years we would have received all our initial investment back. Our purpose is to get us through a long flat equity market like 1999-2010, when bond returns turn negative or a scenario like stagflation by having a big reserve to spend down if forced. That’s it.
If ROC or distribution cuts bother you, which are easily mitigated by investing beyond your target, these aren’t for anyone. That leaves amateurs with cash, negative bond returns at this time and overvalued equities fully allocated and diversified over night anyway waiting for a correction. Looks to me like you’re boxed in.
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Post by richardsok on Nov 3, 2021 5:24:20 GMT
NAV appears solid and premium has dissipated, so it's a better buy now than any time in the last couple of months. But the chart pattern is too random for my taste and the ROC bears deeper looking into. They are obviously not generating enough in income to support such a distribution, so one must ask, is management sitting on enough unrealized gains to continue supporting the payouts? That's a MUST know before buying.
Nothing says 'aw, sh!t' like a disty trim.
Rather than RIV I'd like to look at PDI after the musical chairs is over. (and some other Pimco ponies, too)
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Post by xray on Nov 3, 2021 10:26:25 GMT
rhythmmethod, Your: RIV offers a high dist. and based on equity as opposed to FI. ---------- Many of us sold off RIV in early September @ 18.34. Insider sold @ 17.88. Current MktPrc is 17.28, Up $0.16 since COB Friday. RIV is coming off their recent RO and may have some of the RO's cash to invest [currently]. With that said.... My [single opinion] current data shows RIV @ 6star [neutral], Report card Grade of 48 [power reading of 65] with a total analysis scoring [for last week] of " 212" [need >+302]. Their Rf [current risk to portfolio] is currently +0.255 [need >+0.416]. Appears to be a distribution BUY/play for income investors [current distribution 11.92% COB Friday].... Disclosure: Some of us do not have any RIV in our current portfolio's.... Live Long and Prosper....
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Post by rhythmmethod on Nov 3, 2021 12:53:00 GMT
Rather than RIV I'd like to look at PDI after the musical chairs is over. (and some other Pimco ponies, too) Good advice, IMO. Thanks. |
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Post by steelpony10 on Nov 3, 2021 15:11:45 GMT
The fund has about 60% of its assets in CEFs, 4% in BDCs and BDC Notes and 22% in SPACs. Of note is its 12% short positions - 2% iShares Russell 1000 Growth ETF, 3% iShares iBoxx HY Corporate Bond Fund and 17% SPDR S&P 500 EFT Trust. I find the ROC bothersome - almost 2/3 of the 11% distribution. , Capital , Chahta , all interested parties ROC is non taxable. If you want to consider that your own money being returned go ahead. So if I hold RIV for 10 years depending on distributions, so far for us 11-12%, all our initial investment is received back as a buy and hold investor correct (72/11-12%)? Any ROC received after is tax free as I see it if I interpret my tax filings correctly. Those posters that like to lower taxes might like that. This feature I see as a plus. I only see the major of no growth of principle, equities are better, and they are too volatile for me anyway to trade or rely on for spend down but so are equities I suppose. If you’re familiar with MLP’s their distributions are all tax free unless you invest a huge amount until the holding is liquidated and their distributions are classified as mostly ROC until that time. Similar characteristics to CEF’s in my experience but they increase their dividend and generally start at a lower point then a CEF plus offer some growth. There’s flaws with any investment. Anyone interested should consult IRS Publication 4012 as a resource if your into minutiae and have time on your hands between dips. |
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Post by Chahta on Nov 3, 2021 15:39:22 GMT
I have no quarrel with RIV. I only brought up the distribution components out of curiosity and for discussion. When one buys any type of investment they are buying the managements expertise to produce. If there is trust there then you are good to go. It is best to know as much as possible about anything you are buying but it is pretty difficult to be an expert. RIV is out of my league I just don’t need it and have no desire to learn.
A month ago I asked this guy to pressure wash my house. His price was more than twice the next guy. I understood why when he started talking to me about “stocks” . He was referring to CRF and CLM and the big dividends. I doubt he understood the reasons. I did enjoy that encounter.
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Post by Chahta on Nov 3, 2021 17:02:37 GMT
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Post by Capital on Nov 3, 2021 17:08:37 GMT
The fund has about 60% of its assets in CEFs, 4% in BDCs and BDC Notes and 22% in SPACs. Of note is its 12% short positions - 2% iShares Russell 1000 Growth ETF, 3% iShares iBoxx HY Corporate Bond Fund and 17% SPDR S&P 500 EFT Trust. I find the ROC bothersome - almost 2/3 of the 11% distribution. , Capital , Chahta , all interested parties ROC is non taxable. If you want to consider that your own money being returned go ahead. So if I hold RIV for 10 years depending on distributions, so far for us 11-12%, all our initial investment is received back as a buy and hold investor correct (72/11-12%)? Any ROC received after is tax free as I see it if I interpret my tax filings correctly. Those posters that like to lower taxes might like that. This feature I see as a plus. I only see the major of no growth of principle, equities are better, and they are too volatile for me anyway to trade or rely on for spend down but so are equities I suppose. If you’re familiar with MLP’s their distributions are all tax free unless you invest a huge amount until the holding is liquidated and their distributions are classified as mostly ROC until that time. Similar characteristics to CEF’s in my experience but they increase their dividend and generally start at a lower point then a CEF plus offer some growth. There’s flaws with any investment. Anyone interested should consult IRS Publication 4012 as a resource if your into minutiae and have time on your hands between dips. Perhaps to clarify I do not in principle have an issue with ROC. What I find bothersome for the the ROC for RIV is the large percentage of the distribution that it represents. If I were looking at buying, which I am not, I would want to spend some time trying o find out the source of the ROC. If the source is purely tax and not GAAP then it is good ROC. If there is an economic element to the ROC that it could be bad ROC. |
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Post by rhythmmethod on Nov 3, 2021 17:13:48 GMT
The fund has about 60% of its assets in CEFs, 4% in BDCs and BDC Notes and 22% in SPACs. Of note is its 12% short positions - 2% iShares Russell 1000 Growth ETF, 3% iShares iBoxx HY Corporate Bond Fund and 17% SPDR S&P 500 EFT Trust. I find the ROC bothersome - almost 2/3 of the 11% distribution. , Capital , Chahta , all interested parties ROC is non taxable. If you want to consider that your own money being returned go ahead. So if I hold RIV for 10 years depending on distributions, so far for us 11-12%, all our initial investment is received back as a buy and hold investor correct (72/11-12%)? Any ROC received after is tax free as I see it if I interpret my tax filings correctly. Those posters that like to lower taxes might like that. This feature I see as a plus. I only see the major of no growth of principle, equities are better, and they are too volatile for me anyway to trade or rely on for spend down but so are equities I suppose. If you’re familiar with MLP’s their distributions are all tax free unless you invest a huge amount until the holding is liquidated and their distributions are classified as mostly ROC until that time. Similar characteristics to CEF’s in my experience but they increase their dividend and generally start at a lower point then a CEF plus offer some growth. There’s flaws with any investment. Anyone interested should consult IRS Publication 4012 as a resource if your into minutiae and have time on your hands between dips. Back in the old M* daze there was a poster named "Cliff". He was/is excellent with grammar and punctuation, and I suspect, a calculator as well. He was/is an income investor and played in the sand box of natural gas among others. That wasn't a good fit for me but he made many of the same comments that steelpony10 makes regarding income. He was not a huge fan of CEFs as I remember. Anyway, it would be fun to get him in on the convo. I'm getting great feedback here and I appreciate it! |
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Post by steelpony10 on Nov 3, 2021 17:48:14 GMT
Capital, They’re a fund of funds so ROC can come from there. RIV is managed so they may be using those funds held in reserve to cover the distribution. I forgot to mention a distribution cut may eventually occur although they pledge 12%. Anyway if equities ever stall and like bonds have stalled now sufficient income still flows to supplement SS for monthly bills. That’s all we need. This and a large excess built up as we received most of our investment back in excess to needs the last 12 years will prevent or at least slow spend down which in our case is now about 10 years or so largely in growth indexes and a muni fund.
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Post by steelpony10 on Nov 3, 2021 18:01:15 GMT
rhythmmethod, I’ve been on here forever also and remember Cliff. He always claimed he didn’t have a portfolio but just cash flow. He seemed pretty much all in with MLP’s and that class collapsed. I think MLP’s, CEF’s, REITS, utilities, BDC’s, dividend stocks and funds etc. can all be part of a diverse income flow. I’m most comfortable with CEF’s as a simple solution for me and my wife if I pass first that’s all. Personally I have growth, income and safety covered in my mind. Three diverse income sources same as my parents. This is all I know and it did fine for 35 years until LTC. Incidentally an all CEF’s portfolio would cover LTC. I’m not that nuts yet.🤪🤪
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Post by xray on Nov 11, 2021 18:01:29 GMT
RIV:
PR Newswire
RiverNorth Opportunities Fund, Inc. Announces Final Results Of Rights Offering
Wed, November 10, 2021, 4:30 PM
RIV
-0.06%
DENVER, Nov. 10, 2021 /PRNewswire/ -- RiverNorth Opportunities Fund, Inc. (NYSE: RIV) (the "Fund") is pleased to announce the successful completion of its transferable rights offering (the "Offering") and the final results thereof. The Fund will issue a total of 4,373,407 new common shares as a result of the Offering, which closed on November 5, 2021 (the "Expiration Date").
The subscription price of $16.81 per share in the Offering was established on the Expiration Date based upon a formula equal to 97.5% of the Fund's reported net asset value per share on the Expiration Date. Gross proceeds received by the Fund, before any expenses of the Offering, are expected to total approximately $73,516,972. Shares of common stock issued pursuant to the Rights Offering will be record date shares for the purposes of the Fund's November 2021 distribution payable.
The Offering was oversubscribed and the over-subscription requests exceeded the over-subscription shares available. Accordingly, the shares issued as part of the over-subscription privilege of the Offering will be allocated pro-rata among record date stockholders who submitted over-subscription requests based on the number of rights originally issued to them by the Fund.
----------
Live Long and Prosper....
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Post by xray on Nov 21, 2021 22:31:03 GMT
Took a Phase #1 position [2-4%] in RIV Thursday when the MktPrc went below the NAV [and the current Insider buying activity [35k @ 16.81 on 11/15]....
Live Long and Prosper....
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Post by rhythmmethod on Nov 22, 2021 1:02:40 GMT
Took a Phase #1 position [2-4%] in RIV Thursday when the MktPrc went below the NAV [and the current Insider buying activity [35k @ 16.81 on 11/15].... Live Long and Prosper.... Thanks. Do you mean a 2-4% of total port or your devoted CEF allowance or what you might ultimately devote to RIV? 🙏🏼 |
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Post by xray on Nov 22, 2021 16:13:05 GMT
rhythmmethod, Your: Do you mean a 2-4% of total port or your devoted CEF allowance or what you might ultimately devote to RIV? ---------- When I quote a percentage, I always mean the current % of total portfolio. RIV has been on my watch list for a while now but didn't like the RO rights offering] against the current computer analysis data until currently [last Thursday when their RO of 16.81 figured into the analysis]. To answer your question directly my 2-4% current holding is a "building block" [hope so, anyway] as the analysis data improves. The current data remains negative to neutral but the computer analysis on the MktPrc shows a value of 17.18 [promising].... For information purposes, ECC hit a new MktPrc high of 15.47 in early morning trading. Completed this morning a out/in process and captured the NAV. If you read their Qtrly [$0.50 was added to their normal dividend for December which boosted their dividend for 12 months to >12% [COB Friday]. I posted some additional information on the "Income" string last week.... Live Long and Prosper....
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Post by rhythmmethod on Nov 22, 2021 17:02:53 GMT
xray, thanks! It seems when you make a move it is a meaningful one. I hope you’ll continue to post action on RIV!
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Post by cactusjack on Nov 22, 2021 22:19:06 GMT
Interesting discussion, guys (un-woke pronoun, I suppose). I took a small entry position in RIV to see how it goes. Thanks for all the comments.
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Post by alvinthechipmunk on Nov 22, 2021 23:12:42 GMT
Closed-end fund of funds, at least mostly. 12% distrib. rate might be worth it. .... Not for me. But that's just me.
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Post by steelpony10 on Nov 23, 2021 1:08:51 GMT
cactusjack, If an S&P index drops 36% like in 2020 RIV will drop in value maybe more maybe less. As a managed CEF if they’re skilled managers reasonable cash probably way above most personal inflation rates should still flow. If you hold equities only and/or traditional bonds in a year like this and equities tank without an adequate back up you’re toast that year. Cash and for us up to CEF’s are our backup. In this case 12% down to zip. A 6% distribution may do the job for most (72/3%PIR = 24yrs before you hit 6%) Some of this is paid by SS COLA and you can build large backup funds for years. That’s how it works. alvinthechipmunk, For some cash, CD’s and traditional bonds are the best option. SS COLA still covers some of your personal inflation rate although less so over time. Add in a sudden permanent expense like home health care and your margin of error is slim to none as a downside as compared to those that can build a large as possible backup without sacrificing their chosen retirement lifestyle. Every investment strategy or category has good and bad traits.
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