Israel: it doesn't make sense.

[archer]

Norbert ,
"It is likely that the bipartisan consensus backing Israel won’t survive long once images from Gaza can be used to create a groundswell of anger about the impact of the war on Palestinian civilians."


Very ironic given how many images of Israeli casualties as you pointed out, not to mention mutilations are in circulation. Hopefully attention spans will not be so short as to forget these.

[bizman]

Here's a thought. How about tasking Hamas's supporters and pom pom squad (Iran, Qatar, Turkey) to either each take a third of the Gazans who want to relocate, or pay for 1/3 of the cost of the UN or Egypt to set up a tent-based refugee camp for civilians in the Sinai or elsewhere? And then once the mess is over, really screen these folks carefully for attachments to Hamas before letting them back in?

[FD1000]

The past is unfortunately will be in the future.
The Muslim extremists are a minority who rules the majority.
The majority have supported these extremists for decades because they are scared or agree, no way to know which % is it.
Who ever is attacked, in Israel or Europe or India should not care, the only reasonable answer is to be firm and strong since these extremists get bolder, especially after they declared they will kill you.
Most Westerns think that negotiation will convince these extremists, it's exactly the opposite.
In the last several days you can hear a lot of begging by the hostages family. A normal reaction would be empathy, that actually make Hamas and Hesb happy and emboldened them.
These 2 groups continue to send terrorists into Israel which evacuated thousands of innocent citizens to central Israel.
As I predicted...
The Europeans started to break down.
Most of the Gaza population wouldn't be able to cross to Egypt.
Israel would lose the world support but must accomplish a lot more.
Freeing the hostages, especially Israelis, maybe even Americans doesn't have a high chance. That's because, Hamas must show results, they don't care to be killed and in the past it didn't work.
Israel already killed several top Hamas leaders, there is a lot more to do. At the end, unfortunately, it's a very long process that will not end or slow down in the next several decades.
This is why: the Palestinians got billions already from the USA, Europe and Israel, governing is difficult, after all supplying education, water, housing, roads and collect taxes is complicated. Being a terrorist is easy and you get a boost every time you kill someone.
We are only in the second week, give it another 2-3 weeks and the world will call Israel to stop. That is not the first or last.
If you pay attention Jordan, Syria and Egypt are never blamed or asked to absorb the Palestinians and their borders are there too.
Dealing with countries is a lot easier because someone is in control, dealing with terror groups is a lot harder. The main source is Iran who continues to make fun of the west

[win1177]

Oct 17, 2023 17:28:22 GMT FD1000 said:

The past is unfortunately will be in the future.
The Muslim extremists are a minority who rules the majority.
The majority have supported these extremists for decades because they are scared or agree, no way to know which % is it.
Who ever is attacked, in Israel or Europe or India should not care, the only reasonable answer is to be firm and strong since these extremists get bolder, especially after they declared they will kill you.
Most Westerns think that negotiation will convince these extremists, it's exactly the opposite.
In the last several days you can hear a lot of begging by the hostages family. A normal reaction would be empathy, that actually make Hamas and Hesb happy and emboldened them.
These 2 groups continue to send terrorists into Israel which evacuated thousands of innocent citizens to central Israel.
As I predicted...
The Europeans started to break down.
Most of the Gaza population wouldn't be able to cross to Egypt.
Israel would lose the world support but must accomplish a lot more.
Freeing the hostages, especially Israelis, maybe even Americans doesn't have a high chance. That's because, Hamas must show results, they don't care to be killed and in the past it didn't work.
Israel already killed several top Hamas leaders, there is a lot more to do. At the end, unfortunately, it's a very long process that will not end or slow down in the next several decades.
This is why: the Palestinians got billions already from the USA, Europe and Israel, governing is difficult, after all supplying education, water, housing, roads and collect taxes is complicated. Being a terrorist is easy and you get a boost every time you kill someone.
We are only in the second week, give it another 2-3 weeks and the world will call Israel to stop. That is not the first or last.
If you pay attention Jordan, Syria and Egypt are never blamed or asked to absorb the Palestinians and their borders are there too.
Dealing with countries is a lot easier because someone is in control, dealing with terror groups is a lot harder. The main source is Iran who continues to make fun of the west

Unfortunately, I think what you have said will play out over the next several weeks. It’s almost like a “broken record”, terrorists attack Israel, they then retreat into Gaza/ Lebanon/ or wherever they “hide out” like cockroaches. Israel then retaliates, and some innocent civilians die in the carnage. The world then has a huge “hissy fit” about Israel “murdering” civilians, etc. They then insist that Israel has “murdered” innocent civilians, and should be held accountable. The world insists Israel should be punished for “murdering” innocent civilians, although in reality the terrorists were hiding among the civilians. 

Win

[bizman]

Oct 17, 2023 20:33:23 GMT win1177 said:

Oct 17, 2023 17:28:22 GMT FD1000 said:

The past is unfortunately will be in the future.
The Muslim extremists are a minority who rules the majority.
The majority have supported these extremists for decades because they are scared or agree, no way to know which % is it.
Who ever is attacked, in Israel or Europe or India should not care, the only reasonable answer is to be firm and strong since these extremists get bolder, especially after they declared they will kill you.
Most Westerns think that negotiation will convince these extremists, it's exactly the opposite.
In the last several days you can hear a lot of begging by the hostages family. A normal reaction would be empathy, that actually make Hamas and Hesb happy and emboldened them.
These 2 groups continue to send terrorists into Israel which evacuated thousands of innocent citizens to central Israel.
As I predicted...
The Europeans started to break down.
Most of the Gaza population wouldn't be able to cross to Egypt.
Israel would lose the world support but must accomplish a lot more.
Freeing the hostages, especially Israelis, maybe even Americans doesn't have a high chance. That's because, Hamas must show results, they don't care to be killed and in the past it didn't work.
Israel already killed several top Hamas leaders, there is a lot more to do. At the end, unfortunately, it's a very long process that will not end or slow down in the next several decades.
This is why: the Palestinians got billions already from the USA, Europe and Israel, governing is difficult, after all supplying education, water, housing, roads and collect taxes is complicated. Being a terrorist is easy and you get a boost every time you kill someone.
We are only in the second week, give it another 2-3 weeks and the world will call Israel to stop. That is not the first or last.
If you pay attention Jordan, Syria and Egypt are never blamed or asked to absorb the Palestinians and their borders are there too.
Dealing with countries is a lot easier because someone is in control, dealing with terror groups is a lot harder. The main source is Iran who continues to make fun of the west

Unfortunately, I think what you have said will play out over the next several weeks. It’s almost like a “broken record”, terrorists attack Israel, they then retreat into Gaza/ Lebanon/ or wherever they “hide out” like cockroaches. Israel then retaliates, and some innocent civilians die in the carnage. The world then has a huge “hissy fit” about Israel “murdering” civilians, etc. They then insist that Israel has “murdered” innocent civilians, and should be held accountable. The world insists Israel should be punished for “murdering” innocent civilians, although in reality the terrorists were hiding among the civilians. 

Win

This isn't a solution to the immediate issues, but I think America could start getting its house in order by shutting down the Middle Eastern Studies Departments at universities nationwide, and other offshoots that are advocates of "decolonization" and "intersectionality" which are extremely skilled at making excuses for Nazi-type brutality against Israelis.  And putting a very tight leash on their fellow travelers in the DEI-industrial complex.

[archer]

bizman, So true our education systems have pressures and influence affecting what is being taught, and it is slanted. This has been going on for a long time. I grew up in the south, where US history books at the time were written or last revised in the 50's. When the text books got to the period of the civil war it was like another group of authors stepped in and took over the writing.

[Mustang]

bizman ,"Shutting down Middle Eastern Studies Departments at universities." Are you advocating for a suspension of Constitutional rights? Constitutional rights are for all US citizens, not just the ones we like.

[FD1000]

Win, as I said before, there are no good solutions when you fight terrorists who slaughter, behead and rape civilians.
Innocent Palestinians will be killed too.
If you have a better solution let me know.
The only way for Americans to grasp the situation is for militant terror groups to attack the US directly and use the same tactics.

[archer]

Oct 17, 2023 22:22:00 GMT FD1000 said:

Win, as I said before, there are no good solutions when you fight terrorists who slaughter, behead and rape civilians.
Innocent Palestinians will be killed too.
If you have a better solution let me know.
The only way for Americans to grasp the situation is for militant terror groups to attack the US directly and use the same tactics.

Looking at WW2  and 911, I would say most americans probably do have a grasp. Our response was to go into Japan and Afghanistan . As is the case in Gaza, there were inevitable civilian casualties.

There will always be someone to fuss about the casualties, but it never has changed the responses of any state or country when attacked. It is sad, but unfortunately the case, these conflicts are only resolved concordant with how devastating the response. Tit for tat and cold wars go on for a long time and often end with nothing much gained. 

[Deleted]

Just another example of Darwin's hypotheses. Animals will never stop preying on each other. "Natural Selection" or "Survival of the Fittest" continues. Non-humans prey on each other mostly for a meal while humans have conquered hunger and have moved on to power and control. Whom ever has power and control must know there are those who wish to take it from them. It is perpetual conflict. Kinda sounds like purgatory. (I can't believe I wrote this)

Investing intelligently is one element of remaining in the "Fittest" category, which is where I want to spend my time on earth.

[bizman]

Oct 17, 2023 21:59:21 GMT Mustang said:

bizman ,"Shutting down Middle Eastern Studies Departments at universities." Are you advocating for a suspension of Constitutional rights? Constitutional rights are for all US citizens, not just the ones we like.

No, I don't believe so, as this isn't a free speech issue really.  The boneheaded, brainwashed kids at all of these rallies, who can't stand free speech if it doesn't conform to their beliefs and get all the pronouns correct, are calling for genocide against the Jews when they rally and call for a "free Palestine from the river to the sea."  But at the same time, "words are violence" if they don't like them.  Yet they need to add context to excuse the torture and murder of "settlers."

Let's be clear: those teaching this ideology of intersectionality and decolonization have turned reasonable sounding words into an Orwellian, clinical justification for a second Holocaust.  This isn't free speech.  It is incitement.  At least taxpayers shouldn't fund one dime of this institutional rot.  It is institutionalized anti-Semitism in the name of anti-Zionism.  And in America of all places!

I realize the sick culture of the American university is too far gone to change.  That's why I hope that technology will enable parents and kids who don't hate American values to have another route to gaining the credentials and knowledge to get a good job.

I'm a dreamer, I know.  

[FD1000]

Win, WW2 and 9/11 were horrible. When was the last time 1500 terrorists went crazy from house/Apr to house/apartment slaughtering, beheading, raping, shooting babies to old people for hours and still are inside Israel + sending thousands rockets...all in populated areas.
Plus millions go to the safe room several times a day.
The terrorists took about 200 hostages.
Did the above happen in the US?
The US is very big, when something happens in NY, someone in NC is far far away from it. Even if you are close after 9/11, did someone in Long Island was afraid of terrorists or rockets or being a hostage?

[Karen]

Oct 18, 2023 9:01:21 GMT FD1000 said:

Win, WW2 and 9/11 were horrible. When was the last time 1500 terrorists went crazy from house/Apr to house/apartment slaughtering, beheading, raping, shooting babies to old people for hours and still are inside Israel + sending thousands rockets...all in populated areas.
Plus millions go to the safe room several times a day.
The terrorists took about 200 hostages.
Did the above happen in the US?
The US is very big, when something happens in NY, someone in NC is far far away from it. Even if you are close after 9/11, did someone in Long Island was afraid of terrorists or rockets or being a hostage?

Using WW2 and a point of comparison for the current situation in the Middle East is just a wee bit (sic) of a stretch.  Over the course of about 6 YEARS, 15 MILLION military personnel and 38 MILLION civilians (including 6 million Jews) died in WW2, while 60 MILLION people were displaced from their homes.  WW2 of course also was the start of the atomic age and EVERY living human being now lives with the reality of massive nuclear arsenals in the hands of good, bad and really bad players.

And no, no hostages were taken by the terrorists in during 9/11 except for all of the passengers and crews (think hostages!) on the doomed flights before they ALL, you know, died.  Terrorists flew planes into both World Trade Center buildings in NYC, another plane into the Pentagon, and a fourth plane was headed for the capital.  Three THOUSAND people died and over six THOUSAND were injured in the attacks, while 4.5 MILLION people died in post-9/11 wars.  Meanwhile, airplane travel across the world for EVERY living human being was FOREVER changed.    

The latest event caused by the endless religious fanaticism in the Middle East is of course horrific, but c'mon man, get real!   

Also...
FD: "The only way for Americans to grasp the situation is for militant terror groups to attack the US directly and use the same tactics."

Again, c'mon man!  That comment is from deep left field.  You don't think flying two planes into and demolishing the WTC, flying a plane into the Pentagon, and one plane downed in Shanksville, PA by heroic Americans gives EVERY American a DAILY sense of what terrorism is and can do?         

[archer]

FD1000 , I don't see that Win ever referred to 911 and WW2. That was me. My point in using WW2 and 911 as an example of US response to an attack was to show that Americans do in fact "grasp" retaliation and the inevitable loss of civilian lives. This grasping or understanding does not depend on having the exact same attack. To say it does would mean there is no way anyone can understand anything, as no two attacks will ever be the same. I was not comparing either of these wars with the current Israeli vs Hamas conflict to compare severity or justification.

[win1177]

Oct 17, 2023 22:22:00 GMT FD1000 said:

Win, as I said before, there are no good solutions when you fight terrorists who slaughter, behead and rape civilians.
Innocent Palestinians will be killed too.
If you have a better solution let me know.
The only way for Americans to grasp the situation is for militant terror groups to attack the US directly and use the same tactics.

Agree 100%! What happened in Israel was really barbaric, the Hamas terrorists slipped into Israel and butchered innocents. Unfortunately as you say, innocent Palestinians will die during Israel’s (appropriate) retaliation. The only thing I can somewhat compare this to is the 9/11 attacks. I don’t have a “better solution”, but I believe Israel is 100% “justified” to go into Hamas territory and try to capture/ kill the terrorists, essentially “eliminate” the risk of future attacks, or at least decrease the odds. 

Win

[FD1000]

Win, my mistake referring to you about WW2 and 911.
Afghanistan is an excellent example what happened when you fight Muslim extremists.
After 20 years and trillions spent, the US military left with their tail between their legs.

Archer, most Americans didn't experience first hand attack or thousands of rockets on their property or terrorists going wild in their streets, or going several times a day to a safe room. There is no way to run or hide. These are not soldiers, these are babies to very old population.

[Mustang]

Actually, Afghanistan and Vietnam are examples of the failure of nation building.

Both had strong opposition within the population, opposition that had outside sponsors providing supplies and equipment. An elusive opposition that would fight and then vanish within the population as a whole. In both cases, after a long and lengthy war, the US ended with an embarrassing withdrawal.
www.britannica.com/topic/Viet-Cong
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh_trail

It is hard to break contact with the enemy and pull out. At some point as forces are drawn down, remaining forces no longer able to provide an effective parameter defense. Then its panic to get those who remain out.

P.S. The Viet Cong were not Muslim. They were communists.

[FD1000]

Mustang, my conclusions after observing wars is that Asia have several countries that will not give up easily, think Japan, China, Vietnam, Korea and many Muslim countries.
If I can arrange a perfect war, I would go for China against Iran. Both are bad actors.

[chang]

This thread may have run its course. I had to delete some "apartheid" posts. I suggest posters try to keep to new thoughts or fresh ideas, not repeat and recycle what they’ve already said.

Edit: Sorry Karen but that "report" you linked is as unbiased as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I try to moderate with the lightest possible hand here, but please take that elsewhere. Maybe this thread is largely one-sided for a good reason.

[richardsok]

Oct 12, 2023 23:29:39 GMT richardsok said:

Oct 12, 2023 22:56:16 GMT gman57 said:

Nah, forget Pearl Harbor... You couldn't buy a flag after 9/11, there were none available -- doubt our patriotism at your own peril. 

Immediately after 9/11 the whole country was shocked into sudden political quietude.  Critics of Dubya went suddenly mute.   Didn't last long, though. Chatha's mom is right.  For all the political differences of the 30s & early 1940s, the country had a broad cultural consensus which we have now thoroughly  dissipated.   The recent histories of multi-cultural/racial empires are not encouraging -- unless held together with an iron fist.

Austro-Hungary,  Ottoman Empire, Yugoslavia, Soviet Union and now -- USA.   China deals with its minority cultures by crushing them.

Mass third world immigration through open borders is national suicide.

[Norbert]

A US destroyer has intercepted missiles fired towards Israel by Yemen. The Gaza situation is widening.

www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/19/israel-palestine-latest-news-updates-hamas-gaza-day-13-live/

A lot of the media is focused on Palestinian suffering in Gaza and the tendency is to blame Israel, not the Hamas terrorists hiding among civilians. FD1000 was right to predict this. The BBC, CNN, and NYT have demonstrated great bias against Israel. Certain European countries are taking the same line, essentially blaming Israel for conditions that motivated Hamas to do what it did. Sad.

However, indications are that the US and UK aren't being fooled by the Palestinian narrative. A second US carrier group is headed into the region.

I don't think Hamas will survive, but it will be a tough fight. It's far from clear how Israel will deal with Hamas, which must be expecting a ground attack and has had years to prepare and will have set deadly traps. On the other hand, the IDF knows this too.

We expect to see continuing Islamic terror attacks in Europe too. The only question concerns the determination of European authorities to deal with it proactively.

🇮🇱

[FD1000]

Isn't crazy how Gaza is running out of everything but rockets?

[Chahta]

There were a couple of posts that came out of nowhere. If anyone tries to draw equivalence between anything Israel has ever done to any Palestinian, to what Hamas did in their initial early morning killing spree, is flat out wrong.

[django]

"Collective punishment is a war crime prohibited by treaty in both international and non-international armed conflicts, more specifically Common Article 33 of the Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocol II."
From Wikipedia on collective punishment.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment

[Chahta]

Oct 20, 2023 1:48:04 GMT django said:

"Collective punishment is a war crime prohibited by treaty in both international and non-international armed conflicts, more specifically Common Article 33 of the Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocol II."
From Wikipedia on collective punishment.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment

Pretty sure Hamas, Hezbollah, Arab Spring, ISIS etc. never got the memo.

[Mustang]

Oct 20, 2023 1:48:04 GMT django said:

"Collective punishment is a war crime prohibited by treaty in both international and non-international armed conflicts, more specifically Common Article 33 of the Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocol II."
From Wikipedia on collective punishment.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_punishment

" Since 2007, the Gaza Strip has been under the rule of the political and militant Islamist group Hamas, governing it as an oppressive, de facto one-party state." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

According to your link. "The Hague Conventions are often cited for guidelines concerning the limits and privileges of an occupiers rights with respect to the local (occupied) property. One of the restrictions on the occupier's use of natural resources is the Article 50 prohibition against collective punishment protecting private property. An exception exists allowing takings for military uses with the requirement that the property "must be restored and compensation fixed when peace is made".  Gaza isn't occupied.  Collective punishment doesn't apply.

Gaza isn't an occupied territory.  If Hamas does run Gaza then the attack on Israel was an act of war.  Israel is conducting war against an aggressor.  The Geneva Convention also defines legitimate targets.  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legitimate_military_target

"Any attack must be justified by military necessity: an attack or action must be intended to help in the military defeat of the enemy, it must be an attack on a military objective, and the harm caused to civilians or civilian property must be proportional and not "excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated"

"Some targets are clearly legitimate, including all military personnel directly engaging in hostilities on behalf of a belligerent party who are not hors de combat or are not members of a neutral country.[2] Some civilian infrastructure, such as rail tracks, roads, ports, airports, and telecommunications used by the military for communications or transporting assets, are all considered to be legitimate military targets. The legal situation becomes more nuanced and ambiguous if the harm to civilians or civilian property is "excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated".

While not specifically mentioned in the link other strategic targets are manufacturing facilities that provide equipment and supplies to the enemy.  An ammunition plant is a legitimate strategic target.  An enemy cannot fight without ammunition.  An oil refinery is a legitimate strategic target.  Tanks and armored personnel carriers cannot move without fuel.

"Protocol I suggests that if it is not clear, then the parties to the conflict should err on the side of caution, as Article 52 states: "In case of doubt whether an object which is normally dedicated to civilian purposes, such as a place of worship, a house, or other dwelling or a school, is being used to make an effective contribution to military action, it shall be presumed not to be so used"  

If there is doubt then its not a target.  If there is no doubt then it is.  Enemy soldiers shooting from a church makes that church a legitimate target.  Unfortunately, things are not always so clear and harm to civilians cannot be "excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated"

Information coming from the war zone is completely politicized and to get the scoop new agencies are rushing to print without checking the facts.   Anyone reacting to today's news may find that it is completely wrong tomorrow.  I blame that on the news agencies.

[Norbert]

Myths spread by Palestinians and repeated by the left-leaning Western media:


1) "Gaza is occupied. It's like an open air prison."

No, it was 100% vacated by Israel in 2005 and 21 settlements were dismantled. The Palestinians were free to develop the land any way they wished. It could easily have become another Dubai with waterfront property and thriving tourist trade. Prosperity was in their hands.


2) "Israel is an apartheid state."

No, almost half of Israeli pharmacists are Palestinian Arabs; 48% of new doctors are Arabs; 25% of nurses are Arabs. Palestinians can go anywhere. I personally like to swim at Yafo (the Arab quarter) when in Tel Aviv, where I hear about half Arabic and half Hebrew. I eat at Arab restaurants all the time. There are over two million Arab Israelis and most will tell you you're crazy if you suggest they live under the corrupt Palestinian authority.


3) "The Palestinian Arabs were the original residents of Palestine until invaded and occupied by the Jews."

No, Palestine was just a geographic area occupied by the Ottoman Empire until 1918 and by the British until 1948. It included both Arabs and Jews. The "Palestinian Post" was a mainly Jewish newspaper. The "Palestine Symphony Orchestra" was founded by Jews. Yes, the Jewish population increased as the Nazis gained power in Europe and after about 700,000 Jews were expelled by various Arab countries after WW II. Many Arabs left what's now Israel when five Arab countries invaded immediately after Israel was created. Some were advised to temporarily get out by the invading Arabs, but others were pushed out by Jewish fighters during the Arab invasion.

It's astounding how the Palestinians like to present themselves as victims, when Jews in the area (and nearly everywhere else) had been persecuted for centuries. Major terrorist incidents were recorded in the 1920s, long before the creation of Israel.

-----


The Palestinians could have had a state decades ago, but Islamic terrorists insisted that Israel must be destroyed first. For some reason the Israelis decided not to allow that. The Palestinians have suffered ever since, but many like to blame Israel for that.

And now the NYT and top schools like Harvard demonize Israel for merely wanting to live peacefully without Hamas firing missiles whenever they're in a bad mood.

Well, the Palestinians are *underdogs"; it's probably normal psychology to sympathize with the underdog, even though he's behaved very poorly.

[django]

Haven't we seen the same thing as Gaza/2023 over and over since the 1980's? A terrorist attack on Israel from Lebanon, the West Bank, Gaza...Israel responds with overwhelming force, there is always massive collateral damage to civilians, Israel kills 10 times as many as were killed in the terrorist attack, and a whole new generation of Arab youth are radicalized. Predictably, we'll see history repeat a few years later.
IMO, Israel's "great" sacrifice of removing settlers from Gaza is overrated as a peace gesture. That land was worthless. Israel's long term goal has always been to annex the West Bank, and as long as new settlements are allowed to be built there, it's hard for me to think peace is Israel's priority.

[retiredat48]

FD1000,...and all. What are the hidden escape routes from Gaza for hamas? Like, are there tunnels from Gaza into Egypt?? tunnels into the water? Should Israel ground force entry first priority be to blow up tunnels going into Egypt?? Test and neutralize the entire land border with Egypt.

TIA

R48

[archer]

Oct 20, 2023 12:05:34 GMT django said:

Haven't we seen the same thing as Gaza/2023 over and over since the 1980's? A terrorist attack on Israel from Lebanon, the West Bank, Gaza...Israel responds with overwhelming force, there is always massive collateral damage to civilians, Israel kills 10 times as many as were killed in the terrorist attack, and a whole new generation of Arab youth are radicalized. Predictably, we'll see history repeat a few years later.
IMO, Israel's "great" sacrifice of removing settlers from Gaza is overrated as a peace gesture. That land was worthless. Israel's long term goal has always been to annex the West Bank, and as long as new settlements are allowed to be built there, it's hard for me to think peace is Israel's priority.

Why is the land worthless? I have read a few posts that claim it could have been developed into a Dubai rival. I tend to agree with the latter. Palestinian business men could have found investors in the Arab nations and Israel to develop attractive real estate investments which would have provided work for the less entrepreneurial citizens directly and also indirectly through 2ndary supporting industries of a tourism economy. No, rather than turn to the waterfront they turned toward Israel which by the way could be argued as having a large area of worthless desert, and chose to use their resources to fight an enemy that would be happy to leave them alone. The tolerance of Israel amazes me. If the US was attacked by the an identifiable enemy of which we also had good law abiding citizens living within our borders, w would round them up and put them in concentration camps.