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Post by chang on Oct 14, 2023 7:55:21 GMT
Just a flair up in a centuries old conflict made worse by a U.N. gaff after WWII. Sad. Could you be more specific? Norbert , it was 'steelpony', not 'fishingrod'. The "Search" function is your friend. But Norbert is correct that this discussion is confined to a single thread. There are potential investing implications. I have found most of the input expressed here to be [imo] worth reading. Participants have been civil (I was going to say "debating civilly", but a debate implies there are two sides to an issue). If you prefer not to read the thread, remember that threads can be blocked ( link).
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Post by Norbert on Oct 14, 2023 9:52:03 GMT
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Post by django on Oct 14, 2023 10:14:39 GMT
200,000 Christian brothers crossing our border monthly and we freak out, and we are a large wealthy country. So because the Hamas slaughter of Jews is a “bigger” crime than illegal border crossings it’s OK to ignore the “smaller” crime? That makes no sense. Apples and oranges. Maybe being born a Palestinian is a curse. Where are all their Arab brothers in other countries? BTW the post I quoted has nothing to do with the topic of the OP. Might as well delete it. My comment was on the mass movement of people and how unrealistic I think it is for 2 million Gazans to cross quickly into Egypt. Egypt couldn't handle that. The US can't handle 200,000 refugees crossing our border over a month long period. If you have a problem with my posts, complain to the moderator and/or put me on ignore.
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Post by racqueteer on Oct 14, 2023 12:33:35 GMT
Easy to have one's point misconstrued online. I think we can all agree that successfully moving 2M people around in a period of days is wishful thinking. That is if those hiding amongst the crowd were willing to let their cover remove itself. The Palestinian people have become useful tools and little more. Part of that usefulness has been as a breeding ground for cannon fodder.
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Post by Chahta on Oct 14, 2023 12:36:39 GMT
racqueteer, non the less, referring to the US illegal border crossings is way off topic for this thread.
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Post by fred495 on Oct 14, 2023 12:50:55 GMT
The article you referenced from the Jewish News Syndicate is referring to some of the "op-ed columnists" expressing their own opinion in the NYT.
I would be curious if you can cite any specific news articles or editorials in the NYT that has drawn "an equivalence between Hamas' atrocities and the IDF's efforts to destroy Hamas ..."?
Thanks,
Fred
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Post by Norbert on Oct 14, 2023 14:29:09 GMT
The article you referenced from the Jewish News Syndicate is referring to some of the "op-ed columnists" expressing their own opinion in the NYT.
I would be curious if you can cite any specific news articles or editorials in the NYT that has drawn "an equivalence between Hamas' atrocities and the IDF's efforts to destroy Hamas ..."?
Thanks,
Fred
Fred, That's a fair question. Here's an article from yesterday's NYT front page: www.nytimes.com/2023/10/13/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-war.htmlSnippet: "Human rights groups and international institutions that condemned Hamas’s assault on Israel also criticized the Israeli response, including the evacuation directive, the bombing campaign and a complete blockade that has prevented fuel, water, food and medicine from entering and refugees from leaving, and shutting down electricity service for Gazans. Health care workers, international aid workers and journalists were among those killed in the bombing." Hamas' atrocities are mentioned briefly, but the focus of the article is on the side effects of Israel's effort to destroy Hamas. Sources frequently critical of Israel are cited, while sources explaining Israel's exceptional efforts to minimize civilian casualties are ignored. No mention is made of the fact that Hamas terrorists deliberately try to kill civilians and is telling Gaza civilians to stay put, in harm's way; and that Israel is doing everything it can to minimize civilian casualties while eradicating terrorists the US Secretary of Defense describes as "worse than ISIS". Here's more from the same article: "The United Nations and international aid and rights groups called Israel’s directive unworkable or unlawful, and urged it to rescind the evacuation. A U.N. spokesman, Stéphane Dujarric, said in a statement that the evacuation could not be conducted “without devastating humanitarian consequences,” and “could transform what is already a tragedy into a calamitous situation.” "In Gaza, already cut off from vital supplies, many people fled with what they could carry, not knowing what conditions awaited them in the south or how long they would be gone. But many others remained, out of necessity, fear or defiance. Hamas, the militant group that controls Gaza and conducted a deadly, large-scale incursion into Israel last weekend, has urged people to stay put, calling the Israeli directive 'psychological warfare.'" ----- So, the article gives an impression of equivalence; that both sides are doing bad things. It does that with extended, highly selective quotes critical of everything that Israel is doing; but only mentioning Hamas' acts in a cursory, perfunctory manner. Again, this is a NYT front-page article, not an editorial or opinion piece. It's terrible journalism, lacking in objectivity, designed to infuse a certain political perspective in the minds of readers. It's shameful. Hope that helps. N.
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Post by django on Oct 14, 2023 15:09:12 GMT
There is an interesting piece in The Atlantic titled "Israel Is Walking Into a Trap". paywalled, but here's a snippet:
"It’s a trap. Hamas’s ruthless and spectacular attack on southern Israel last Saturday was many things: an atrocity, a display of militant ingenuity, and a demonstration of the weakness of Israeli intelligence and defenses. Israel and the Palestinians have a long history of brutality against each other, but the Hamas killing spree outdoes anything since Israeli-controlled Christian militias massacred unarmed Palestinian refugees in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps outside of Beirut in 1982. It may even have been the single most brutal act by either side in the 100-year-old conflict. But above all, it was intended as a trap—one that Israel appears about to fall into.
Hamas’s leaders and their Iranian backers have a conscious strategy. Like almost all other acts of spectacularly bloodthirsty terrorism, Hamas’s assault on southern Israel was designed to provoke an emotional and equally or even more outrageous response by the targeted society. Hamas and Iran are attempting to goad the Israelis into Gaza for a prolonged confrontation."
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Post by fred495 on Oct 14, 2023 15:20:03 GMT
Thanks, Norbert. Appreciate your quick response. Will write to the NYT.
However, the article does say that "Hamas, the militant group that controls Gaza and conducted a deadly, large-scale incursion into Israel last weekend, has urged people to stay put, calling the Israeli directive “psychological warfare".
Fred
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Post by archer on Oct 14, 2023 15:23:42 GMT
Regarding the idea of the Palestinian people moving elsewhere, and being received by neighboring countries, I listened to a podcast yesterday that throughout the region, Palestinians are looked down upon, and have been long before this conflict and even before WW2. They have been identified as an ethnic group as individuals and not just as a state. So, as some have posted, they definitely are not wanted elsewhere. The fact that Iran gives them aid isn't necessarily because they are friends. Iranian aid to Hamas is perhaps more an effort to keep the Palestinians all in one place of their own rather than spreading out into other areas.
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Post by Norbert on Oct 14, 2023 16:19:02 GMT
Thanks, Norbert. Appreciate your quick response. Will write to the NYT.
However, the article does say that "Hamas, the militant group that controls Gaza and conducted a deadly, large-scale incursion into Israel last weekend, has urged people to stay put, calling the Israeli directive “psychological warfare".
Fred That's true. But, please look at the choice of vocabulary. Hamas would be a "militant" group, according to the article. That word can mean anything. There are church militants who fight against sin; there are women militants, who fight for equal rights. Hamas just decapitated babies, raped young girls, and cut a baby out of a pregnant woman. They're telling civilians to hang around the neighborhood during a major attack pre-announced by Israel. The word "militant" is not descriptive or appropriate here. Even the word "terrorist" doesn't quite capture the evil of Hamas. The NYT is lending Hamas a certain credibility, while focusing on anything and everything that they can find to criticize Israel. I'm disgusted by what the NYT has become.
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Post by Chahta on Oct 14, 2023 16:24:40 GMT
All news outlets, papers and TV shows will pick predictable and pre-planned slant on the Hamas brutality and the Israeli response. There is no such thing as impartial review anymore and has not been for a long time. Even those in our own government are not capable.
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Post by johntaylor on Oct 14, 2023 17:31:15 GMT
Kissinger offered this: "Europe Let in Too Many Foreigners, Says Henry Kissinger in Wake of Pro-Hamas Demonstrations Across Continent"
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Post by chang on Oct 14, 2023 18:40:37 GMT
Kissinger offered this: "Europe Let in Too Many Foreigners, Says Henry Kissinger in Wake of Pro-Hamas Demonstrations Across Continent" Kissinger is right ( link). Not more than an hour ago I went out to do some food shopping here in London, and I saw an Arab immigrant on a bicycle with a big Palestinian flag attached. But London is highly unusual with >40% of the population non-UK born.
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Post by FD1000 on Oct 14, 2023 22:05:00 GMT
Several comments based on what I read in this thread...from memory. 1) Sabra and Shatila were places were Christmas killed Muslims. As usual, they tried to blame Israel. BTW, Lebanon used to be mostly Christiana, then Iran sent their terrorists to southern Lebanon. These guys have been hostiled to Israel but they also killed many Christians and many of them flew and why Muslims are the majority. 2) The above is a good lesson. When Muslims come to your neighborhood get ready for: they have more kids, they eventually open their own school, they want Sharia laws, indirectly they are coming after others and want them to obey these laws too. European countries found it out. 3) No other country have taken the Palestinians, even when their numbers were much smaller and some of these countries are rich with a lot of land. There is zero chance Egypt will allow the Palestinians to come to Egypt 4) The Jews have a claim on Israel because they were there over thousands of years before the Greeks, Romans, Otomans, and Arabs/Muslims. The Jews never gave up this claim, they were always a small minority that was harmed and killed over thousands of years and still today antisemitism still exists even in countries that hardly have Jews. The foundation of Israel in 1948 changed everything. Many still can't take it, especially when Israel is strong and successful. The Jews have more claim on Israel than the Europeans or Americans on their countries.
Israel can't solve the Palestinians or the Muslim problem, it's unfortunate that Israel happens to be in this place. But no one else can solve the Muslim extremists anywhere in the world.
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Post by Mustang on Oct 14, 2023 22:05:33 GMT
Norbert,, I would call the Hamas attack on Israel barbaric, but that would probably be an insult to barbarians. Chahta , That is also true of college campuses. chang , I read an article that suggested many of Europe's problems stemmed from multiculturalism. That is just another word for segregation. The emigrants never assimilated into their new country's culture. Many still flags of their home country. That is where their allegiance lies.
FD1000, Don't you think it odd that Jews, Christians, and Muslims have in the past and are currently fighting each other in the name of God? As far as I know its the same God, just different messengers. And sadly, some of the greatest atrocities in history were done in the name of God.
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Post by FD1000 on Oct 14, 2023 22:23:27 GMT
Mustang, over many decades the Christians and Muslims killed a lot of people in the name of God. Jews haven't done it all these centuries. Since 1948, Israel has been attacked by several Muslim countries who want to kill all the Jews and they declared it many times. Israelis have the right to defend themselves. Sure, they made some mistakes, war and occupation lead to mistakes and several extreme but the big picture have been mostly very clear. Again, if you take Israel out of the picture, Muslims are still doing pretty bad stuff to their own people, still fighting other Muslim countries, and are still militant in Europe, India, Philippines and more. You don't find Jews attacking others in these places.
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Post by gman57 on Oct 15, 2023 0:03:38 GMT
Religion or money,,, which one is more evil? I think religion has killed more than anything else.
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Post by bizman on Oct 15, 2023 1:18:41 GMT
Norbert ,, I would call the Hamas attack on Israel barbaric, but that would probably be an insult to barbarians. Chahta , That is also true of college campuses. chang , I read an article that suggested many of Europe's problems stemmed from multiculturalism. That is just another word for segregation. The emigrants never assimilated into their new country's culture. Many still flags of their home country. That is where their allegiance lies.
FD1000 , Don't you think it odd that Jews, Christians, and Muslims have in the past and are currently fighting each other in the name of God? As far as I know it's the same God, just different messengers. And sadly, some of the greatest atrocities in history were done in the name of God. This last point is the most unbelievable. So many religious persuasions who believe (or have believed in the past) that an omnipotent God needs and wants them to kill nonbelievers for Him. Completely irrational. But people believing completely in irrational nonsense is a problem that shape shifts into different forms but never seems to go away. Humans are strange beings. Thankfully many cultures have evolved out of the idea that God wants them to kill others for Him. Islam needs a Pope-like individual and/or institution to punish radical heresies. Plus a consensus within the Ummah to oppose the radicals. I wonder how many hundreds of years that may take to develop? How can there be a peace process when one side will only accept the eventual elimination of the other "from the river to the sea?"
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Post by gman57 on Oct 15, 2023 1:47:27 GMT
Norbert ,, I would call the Hamas attack on Israel barbaric, but that would probably be an insult to barbarians. Chahta , That is also true of college campuses. chang , I read an article that suggested many of Europe's problems stemmed from multiculturalism. That is just another word for segregation. The emigrants never assimilated into their new country's culture. Many still flags of their home country. That is where their allegiance lies.
FD1000 , Don't you think it odd that Jews, Christians, and Muslims have in the past and are currently fighting each other in the name of God? As far as I know it's the same God, just different messengers. And sadly, some of the greatest atrocities in history were done in the name of God. Humans are strange beings. Boy is that an understatement... I often shake my head and wonder in disbelief at how we treat each other and the world around us.
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Post by chang on Oct 15, 2023 5:41:52 GMT
Last two posts deleted. Posts on Israel’s legitimacy are way too political and we’re not going there. Edit: fred495 , I left your follow-up post standing until you edited it to take a jab at me. I suggest you move along from this thread.
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Post by Norbert on Oct 15, 2023 13:02:19 GMT
Michael Oren (former Israeli ambassador to the US): attack Hezbollah first. www.israelhayom.com/opinions/a-golden-opportunity-to-focus-on-hezbollah/Hezbollah is a more serious threat to Israel than Hamas, with experienced fighters, accurate missiles, and direct supply routes to Iran. It poses an unacceptable threat to Israel. Sooner or later it will attack. It already fired on Israel last week. Hamas is now boxed in, with no supply routes and no means to escape. Let them wait in their tunnels. Meanwhile, get the non-combatants out of the battle zone. I note that no reader comments support Oren's idea.
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Post by FD1000 on Oct 15, 2023 13:35:26 GMT
I think I already made a comment on Hamas. Hamas probably have water and food supplies to last for weeks. These guys can easily convert to look like another innocent Palestinian. If Israeli soldiers would look in every apartment it would be a suicide. Even if they kill many of them, there are plenty of young kids to recruit from. Hezb is maybe more trained but the Hamas had much better results.
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Post by Chahta on Oct 15, 2023 15:25:05 GMT
I disagree with opening a second front with Hezbollah. It would most likely bring Iran into the mix right away. Israel needs to clean up Hamas first. I do understand Hezbollah has launched rockets.
Let’s hope this does not gradually escalate to nuclear. Who knows about Iran.
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Post by racqueteer on Oct 15, 2023 15:37:15 GMT
Iran would rather work through proxies; I don’t think they would favor direct involvement. Hamas is problematic by itself; getting involved with Hezbollah is better avoided atm. The only advantage would be that you’d be more likely to get a straight up battle.
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Post by FD1000 on Oct 15, 2023 15:57:15 GMT
You guys make me giggle. Israel doesn't select to go against Hezb. If Hezb attack, Israel will answer. The stronger Hezb attacks, the more Israel reacts. There must be a min which is no rockets, bullets or attacks inside Israel. Basically, Israelis can live their normal lives. Atomic bombs are more of a global problem and must address accordingly...as I said before, many things are connected: strong US, constant pressure on Iran, talk is cheap, only actions matter. If an atomic bomb lands in Israel, it's a global disaster because Israel will retaliate with its nuclear power.
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Post by Norbert on Oct 15, 2023 16:40:29 GMT
You guys make me giggle. Israel doesn't select to go against Hezb. If Hezb attack, Israel will answer. The stronger Hezb attacks, the more Israel reacts. There must be a min which is no rockets, bullets or attacks inside Israel. Basically, Israelis can live their normal lives. Atomic bombs are more of a global problem and must address accordingly...as I said before, many things are connected: strong US, constant pressure on Iran, talk is cheap, only actions matter. If an atomic bomb lands in Israel, it's a global disaster because Israel will retaliate with its nuclear power. Why not take preemptive action, if an advantage can be gained militarily? Israel did that successfully against the Egyptian airfields in 1967. Presently an ex-ambassador to the US is recommending it. There's no safety in Israel as long as Hezbollah is sitting there with 150,000 rockets targeting the Jewish state.
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Post by FD1000 on Oct 15, 2023 20:44:17 GMT
I don't have a lot of time but I listen to Israeli TV with several high rank Ex officers. There is no question, IDF messed up big. But then, the mess up continued for hours later. It got worse when many officers just drove there and tried to do it by themselves with several others without planning and the right equipment and got killed. There were unbelievable heroic stories. The experts are saying it will take months to complete the mission, not weeks. Israel will not going to control 2 million Palestinians. The war is getting bigger because thousands Israeli citizens were evacuated in the south but also in the north. IDF captured a lot of arms from Hamas and was astonished that most were manufactured in the Gaza strip. They were high quality and the numbers were unbelievably a lot, and sofisticated stuff. IDF also found water and food enough for months, as I predicted. Hamas was ready to last for a long time. IDF can't explain what happened in the last 1-2 days when communication and GPS were off in the north. They think Hesb caused it. All in all, Israel messed up, they will get better, but the solution is far from over or easy, and the world pressure haven't started yet. N, I agree with you. Israel and IDF were sleeping, the deep division didn't help.
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Post by django on Oct 15, 2023 21:51:34 GMT
I heard an interesting statistic on one of the Sunday morning news shows. What happened in Israel is not equivalent to our 911, it was much, much worse. To be equivalent, 40,000 Americans would have had to lost their lives on 911. It's a perspective that helps me better understand the Israeli response.
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Post by Norbert on Oct 17, 2023 16:25:37 GMT
This Bloomberg is a few days old, but offers a reasonable perspective on the state of play around Gaza: www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-10-13/israel-hamas-war-after-gaza-strip-invasion-us-fears-lack-of-strategy#xj4y7vzkgThis Jewish News Service piece by Johnathan Tobin tries to go deeper: www.jns.org/hamas-weaponizes-sympathy-for-civilians-they-help-kill/"It is likely that the bipartisan consensus backing Israel won’t survive long once images from Gaza can be used to create a groundswell of anger about the impact of the war on Palestinian civilians." One reason for Israel's invasion delay might be concerns about a Hezbollah attack from Lebanon once Israel goes into Gaza. Best to wait for the second US carrier group to arrive? However, another reason might be concerns about the Biden administration waffling in its apparent support once the media is flooded with images of "innocent" Palestinians laying dead in the streets. The Israeli victims of Hamas' atrocities could soon be forgotten. Tobin: "Hamas has governed Gaza for 16 years and though there has been some grumbling, the tyrannical Islamist rule the terrorist organization imposed has for the most part gone unchallenged by those living there. The unfortunate truth about the political culture of the Palestinians is that it valorizes terrorism and treats those who shed Jewish blood as gaining legitimacy for doing so. "Biden and liberal pundits are desperate to separate the Palestinian people from Hamas. That argument would be stronger if Palestinians didn’t routinely take to the streets to celebrate terror attacks against Israel, passing out candy to children and hoisting them on their shoulders, weapons in hand." I read that about 500,000 Palestinians have left Gaza City for the proclaimed safe zone south of Wadi Gaza. Best to wait and keep non combattant casualties to an absolute minimum. There are lots of moving parts in this situation. I think it's a good idea to get 95%+ of non combattants out of harm's way. And instead of entering the well-defended tunnel system, isolate it, move carefully, and use advanced listening devices plus bunker-busting munitions to destroy Hamas. Hamas has had years to prepare for this; don't play their game. Offer surrender terms to Hamas if the hostages are freed.
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