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Post by django on Oct 11, 2023 13:45:12 GMT
Come on now. Believing Palestinians have legitimate grievances against Israel doesn't mean you support Islamic terrorism.
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Post by Norbert on Oct 11, 2023 13:56:57 GMT
The Palestinians only have themselves to blame. They were offered a state at Camp David, and refused an amazing deal.
Israel departed Gaza. With the help of European supporters, they could have constructed another Dubai. Instead, they opted for tunnels and missiles.
Israel's security concerns are real, as should be obvious now. Millions of Arabs live decent lives in Israel. But, you can't expect Israelis to tolerate the endless, unprovoked attacks.
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Post by richardsok on Oct 11, 2023 14:35:54 GMT
The Palestinians only have themselves to blame. They were offered a state at Camp David, and refused an amazing deal. Israel departed Gaza. With the help of European supporters, they could have constructed another Dubai. Instead, they opted for tunnels and missiles. Israel's security concerns are real, as should be obvious now. Millions of Arabs live decent lives in Israel. But, you can't expect Israelis to tolerate the endless, unprovoked attacks. Again, N: all absolutely true. Agree entirely. It used to be said Arafat never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. So here we are. Fighting is ongoing, likely to spread and Iran is trying to develop its nukes. One day they well might and Israel could be toast. We can continue with another middling-level war, like we have had over and again. Giving the next generation all the motive it needs to erupt again in another four of five years. Or --- do you have in mind a more "permanent" solution? Perhaps a million Palestinians dead and the wretched survivors driven off into the Sinai?.... because, as you say, they deserve it. For my part, I'm thinking a desalination plant, perhaps somewhere along the coast, the Horn of Africa. Then an airport. An artificial seaport.... and eventually a city, all built with petro dollars and an even-handed Dubai/Qatar/Jordan, Britain/USA effort. Time again in history, implacable wars (among relatively small groups) have been settled after either total massacre or distant displacement. I'm suggesting the latter.
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Post by Norbert on Oct 11, 2023 15:57:55 GMT
The Palestinians only have themselves to blame. They were offered a state at Camp David, and refused an amazing deal. Israel departed Gaza. With the help of European supporters, they could have constructed another Dubai. Instead, they opted for tunnels and missiles. Israel's security concerns are real, as should be obvious now. Millions of Arabs live decent lives in Israel. But, you can't expect Israelis to tolerate the endless, unprovoked attacks. Again, N: all absolutely true. Agree entirely. It used to be said Arafat never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. So here we are. Fighting is ongoing, likely to spread and Iran is trying to develop its nukes. One day they well might and Israel could be toast. We can continue with another middling-level war, like we have had over and again. Giving the next generation all the motive it needs to erupt again in another four of five years. Or --- do you have in mind a more "permanent" solution? Perhaps a million Palestinians dead and the wretched survivors driven off into the Sinai?.... because, as you say, they deserve it. For my part, I'm thinking a desalination plant, perhaps somewhere along the coast, the Horn of Africa. Then an airport. An artificial seaport.... and eventually a city, all built with petro dollars and an even-handed Dubai/Qatar/Jordan, Britain/USA effort. Time again in history, implacable wars (among relatively small groups) have been settled after either total massacre or distant displacement. I'm suggesting the latter. The IDF will destroy Hamas' military capability while minimizing civilian casualties. That's what it's always done. Unfortunately, many civilians will be killed. Temporary I'd like to see a carefully policed safe haven. Longer term I like your idea of a displacement. The Israeli I sat down with today talked about returning the Gaza strip to Egypt, for Egypt to manage. He also surprised me by supporting the creation of a Palestinian state on the West Bank. His reasoning: give the Palestinians their nation; offer support with infrastructure including water. The Europeans will help with money. The Palestinians must agree to a permanent cease fire with Israel and give up any right of return to what is now Israel. Israeli Arabs can choose whether to stay or go. But, warn them: if you launch a single missile at Israel, we will declare war immediately and destroy your new country. Zero tolerance for any renewed terrorism or attack.
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mani
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Post by mani on Oct 11, 2023 16:18:56 GMT
I don't see how the US can be "even handed" with Hamas! You'll have to explain what that means. My take is that tolerance for terrorism leads to more terrorism. I don't think anyone is saying that. Hamas must be exterminated. Period. That said Palestinians are not Hamas and a path forward must be developed. I read median age in Gaza is 15? Half the population has known nothing but living under a blocus. How are they supposed to grow up? You live in france I recall. Maybe you heard the 80s song by Goldman "ne en 17 in Leidenstadt". we are exactly in this situation. We need to find a way to offer the next generation some future (assuming the current one is already lost).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2023 16:35:30 GMT
"Nuanced" attitudes are reasonable when two sides adopt it. The Abraham Accords are a shining example of achievable shared respect between cultures. There is another faction of the ME which are fanatical. The game of coexistence requires rules of morality and respect for others. Those rules were horrifically and unforgivably broken last weekend.
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Post by Norbert on Oct 11, 2023 18:06:09 GMT
I don't see how the US can be "even handed" with Hamas! You'll have to explain what that means. My take is that tolerance for terrorism leads to more terrorism. I don't think anyone is saying that. Hamas must be exterminated. Period. That said Palestinians are not Hamas and a path forward must be developed. I read median age in Gaza is 15? Half the population has known nothing but living under a blocus. How are they supposed to grow up? You live in france I recall. Maybe you heard the 80s song by Goldman "ne en 17 in Leidenstadt". we are exactly in this situation. We need to find a way to offer the next generation some future (assuming the current one is already lost). Who exactly is the "we" in that sentence? The Arab world is wealthy. Surely a Hamas supporter like Qatar can help the next generation? God knows how Qatar money helped Hamas prepare for its attack on Israel. The people of Gaza elected Hamas, which ran on a platform of armed resistance to Israel. Sorry, it's not the responsibility of the US to fix every problem in the world.
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Post by chang on Oct 11, 2023 18:41:59 GMT
The people of Gaza elected Hamas, which ran on a platform of armed resistance to Israel. Been working 18 hour days for weeks now, and have very little time to post here. But I'm trying to spend a few minutes every day and read everything that others have posted. I was meaning to make a comment on this thread, but Norbert beat me to it. Hamas was elected. The people bear responsibility for their leadership. Yes, I know, they are uneducated, oppressed by Hamas, harassed by Hamas, and threatened by Hamas. But the people who should remove Hamas are the people of Gaza. They haven't. They reap what they sow. Not every story has two sides. Not every terrorist is someone else's freedom fighter. This situation is complex, but you don't really need to look for that complexity to find the truth. Often, evil is just evil. Sometimes there are no shades of gray. For my money, 98% of the comments here are on target, and Norbert has trenchantly articulated the facts with crystal clarity and accuracy. Happy to let this thread run, but please try to avoid repetition and keep the content fresh. So far, the input and discourse has been A-1 excellent and well worth reading.
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Post by richardsok on Oct 11, 2023 19:09:54 GMT
I'm seeing photos of lovely downtown Gaza.
Looking like Moonscape City. Further comment seems futile.
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mani
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Post by mani on Oct 11, 2023 19:11:49 GMT
Who exactly is the "we" in that sentence? The Arab world is wealthy. Surely a Hamas supporter like Qatar can help the next generation? God knows how Qatar money helped Hamas prepare for its attack on Israel. The people of Gaza elected Hamas, which ran on a platform of armed resistance to Israel. Sorry, it's not the responsibility of the US to fix every problem in the world. "We" is the world, ideally the Arab world as you point out. That said let's not act like the US does not have interests in the area. An estimated 300,000 Israelis are also US citizens. I'd say we have a vested interest in seeing the area peaceful, just for them if anything. When it comes to elected governments, the recent years have shown us, if it wasn't obvious before, that we can have governments we absolutely hate and feel powerless to do anything about it. And that's in a semi functioning democracy. Let's not think residents of Gaza all love their government.
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Post by fred495 on Oct 11, 2023 19:18:55 GMT
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Post by fred495 on Oct 11, 2023 20:12:08 GMT
Hamas must be permanently eliminated, as was done with ISIS. President Biden has made the same comparison. The IDF has started work, making a point of warning residents to evacuate. It's difficult work when the terrorists hide among civilians. I certainly support the creation of a safe haven for innocent civilians. Yes, destroy the Hamas terrorists, but "warning residents to evacuate" Gaza is easier said than done. Where do you think this "safe haven for innocent civilians" can be created before the IDF starts its work? There are over 2 million people barely subsisting in an urban slum of a 140 square miles. "Let's not think residents of Gaza all love their government", as another poster (mani) stated so well. Fred
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Post by anovice on Oct 11, 2023 20:35:31 GMT
I'm seeing photos of lovely downtown Gaza. Looking like Moonscape City. Further comment seems futile. Have you seen the photos of the massacre in Kfar Aza?
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Post by Norbert on Oct 11, 2023 21:05:34 GMT
Hamas must be permanently eliminated, as was done with ISIS. President Biden has made the same comparison. The IDF has started work, making a point of warning residents to evacuate. It's difficult work when the terrorists hide among civilians. I certainly support the creation of a safe haven for innocent civilians. Yes, destroy the Hamas terrorists, but "warning residents to evacuate" Gaza is easier said than done. Where do you think this "safe haven for innocent civilians" can be created before the IDF starts its work? There are over 2 million people barely subsisting in an urban slum of a 140 square miles. "Let's not think residents of Gaza all love their government", as another poster (mani) stated so well. Fred Sorry, but my thoughts are with the victims of the Hamas terrorists elected by the people of Gaza and cheered by them. Israel has no choice but to eliminate the terrorists, who are hiding among the population. It's a horrible situation. Perhaps a safe haven can be arranged for innocent civilians. I hope so. Meanwhile, I do not expect the IDF to put its soldiers at high risk by doing building searches, one at a time. (Sooner or later they'll have to enter the tunnels, which will be very dangerous.) The Palestinians have embraced terrorism for decades. I don't remember hearing many speak out against the actions of the PLO and Hamas, but do remember seeing footage of Palestinians dancing in the streets after 9/11. I support the IDF. I have personally spoken to Palestinians who damn their corrupt and murderous leaders. I want to create a situation where such individuals can find opportunity and prosperity. But right now I want to see Hamas destroyed ... for the sake of the greater good.
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Post by archer on Oct 11, 2023 21:30:40 GMT
I doubt Hamas would permit a mass exodus of its civilian population. By civilian I mean not sympathetic to Hamas, and just want to live their lives. Hamas depends on them for detering Israeli offensives. Given that, I'm not sure how Israel could organize it. Adding to the difficulty, Hamas is very much homogenized in their society, and even in individual families. Israel has given notice to bomb targets in the past, with the result of civilians being encouraged to stay put, and probably Hamas fighters leaving the targets. With enough destruction, exodus would eventually happen. I think containment of the population while eradicating Hamas would have the best results. At that point aid could be given to civilians. There would still likely be irreparable damage to relations due to so many civilians losing family members. I don't see this as a region prone to transforming hatred into peace.
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Post by richardsok on Oct 11, 2023 21:46:17 GMT
I'm seeing photos of lovely downtown Gaza. Looking like Moonscape City. Further comment seems futile. Have you seen the photos of the massacre in Kfar Aza? Indeed I have. Comment from me is still futile. I have not ONE word of criticism for the IDF response. As before, handle it as they think best; I wish only that the US would minimize its involvement.
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Post by Chahta on Oct 11, 2023 21:59:10 GMT
The Palestinians only have themselves to blame. They were offered a state at Camp David, and refused an amazing deal. Israel departed Gaza. With the help of European supporters, they could have constructed another Dubai. Instead, they opted for tunnels and missiles. Israel's security concerns are real, as should be obvious now. Millions of Arabs live decent lives in Israel. But, you can't expect Israelis to tolerate the endless, unprovoked attacks. Again, N: all absolutely true. Agree entirely. It used to be said Arafat never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. So here we are. Fighting is ongoing, likely to spread and Iran is trying to develop its nukes. One day they well might and Israel could be toast. We can continue with another middling-level war, like we have had over and again. Giving the next generation all the motive it needs to erupt again in another four of five years. Or --- do you have in mind a more "permanent" solution? Perhaps a million Palestinians dead and the wretched survivors driven off into the Sinai?.... because, as you say, they deserve it. For my part, I'm thinking a desalination plant, perhaps somewhere along the coast, the Horn of Africa. Then an airport. An artificial seaport.... and eventually a city, all built with petro dollars and an even-handed Dubai/Qatar/Jordan, Britain/USA effort. Time again in history, implacable wars (among relatively small groups) have been settled after either total massacre or distant displacement. I'm suggesting the latter. Sorry but I have to disagree with someone I generally agree with. This is no way “on going fighting”. This was started as a brutal attack making a huge statement. This is far too early to suggest anything but the elimination of Hamas. A separate state that will only be used to grow more terrorism? Nope. Talk about that next year after Hamas is brutally destroyed.
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Post by fred495 on Oct 11, 2023 22:35:17 GMT
FYI, here are some excerpts from an article in today's NYT:
"The United Nations said that since Saturday, nine ambulances had been hit in Gaza and 13 attacks on health care facilities had been reported. An Israeli military spokesman did not respond to questions about whether the military was targeting ambulances.
The Israeli military has said its strikes are targeting all sites connected with Hamas, including the homes of members.
“A huge number of people are trapped under the rubble until this moment; for two days they have been under the rubble,” said Mahmoud Basal, a spokesman for the Palestinian Civil Defense in Gaza, which administers emergency service. “The rescue workers can’t reach them because of a lack of equipment.”
Rescuers also said they could not keep up with the pace of the airstrikes and their destruction. Unlike in past wars, when Israeli airstrikes have targeted single buildings, entire blocks are now being flattened, they said.
Israeli military commanders have said there is a “change of paradigm” in their airstrikes on Gaza.
“We need to use different language and different terminology regarding our assault activities in Gaza,” Daniel Hagari, an Israeli military spokesman, said in a briefing on Tuesday. “This is not like previous rounds.”
The Israeli military warned Gazans to leave areas — in some cases entire districts or towns — it was targeting.
But Gazans have nowhere to go; the strip has no bomb shelters, and those who have gone to the homes of relatives in other areas often found that they, too, were fleeing. More than 260,000 people have been displaced inside the territory, with many of them sheltering in schools and hospitals.
Even those have not been spared from the strikes.
“Entire square miles are being erased from the map completely,” Mr. Basal said."
Yes, punish Hamas. But, if the above is true, Israel shouldn't commit the same kind of war crimes against civilians in Gaza that we accuse the Russians of doing in the Ukraine or in Syria. If it's wrong in Syria and the Ukraine, it's also wrong in Gaza.
Fred
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Post by richardsok on Oct 11, 2023 23:36:54 GMT
"Yes, punish Hamas. But, if the above is true, Israel shouldn't commit the same kind of war crimes against civilians in Gaza that we accuse the Russians of doing in the Ukraine or in Syria. If it's wrong in Syria and the Ukraine, it's also wrong in Gaza."
Agree. IF the IDF is indeed giving URGENT, LOUD and TIMELY warnings to neighborhoods before they blast city apartment blocks into dust, then that is some solace to what we are seeing. I understand if Israel rather uses artillery than send infantry to try to clear apartment complexes room by room. But if we are past time for delicacy, it is certainly time for the US to avoid aiding savagery by donating the killing ordnance . The US has an ugly history of shelling and carpet bombing cities. In '45 Truman COULD have used the first atomic bomb as a demonstration to show Japan what it faced instead of incinerating Hiroshima.
Wrong then. Wrong now. Destroy Hamas, yes. But I want nothing to do with liquidating a population.
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Post by FD1000 on Oct 11, 2023 23:55:14 GMT
The only way a Western person can understands the reality is to experience it him/herself. Soppose the Mexican cartel takes charge of parts of Mexico City, controls the Mexican Gov, can easily pretend to be an innocent Mexican.. .and send thousands os missiles on LA, San Francisco, Houston, DC, NY and Atlanta. I want to see how pure can you be? On paper it sounds good until it happens to you.
There are no great solutions because one side wants to kill you no matter what. If this happens in Viatnam, you can leave, but when the missile kill your family, you will sing another tune. I was never religious but eye for an eye is a good start.
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Post by fred495 on Oct 12, 2023 0:05:42 GMT
richardsok said: "Destroy Hamas, yes. But I want nothing to do with liquidating a population."
Agree, of course. Because, as someone has wisely said, "if your moral compass is attuned to the suffering of innocents of only one side, your compass is broken, and so is your humanity".
Fred
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Post by bizman on Oct 12, 2023 0:36:25 GMT
I have little more to add other than a comment I heard from Dana Perino. What is happening now in Gaza is horrible, and the IDF tries to minimize civilian casualties, but it is impossible to avoid it because Hamas set things up so that to go after them a whole lot of innocent civilians will have to die. But all of this horror is on the heads of Hamas. They are a nihilistic death cult. Like rabid dogs, the world must be relieved of them. The collateral damage to innocent people is a horrible tragedy. Which is why Hamas, like the German Nazi party, must become only a tragic memory.
Hopefully on the other side of that, decent people who want to live and let live can build bridges and live in peace. But again, all of this horror in Gaza now is on the heads of Hamas. Q.E.D.
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Post by Chahta on Oct 12, 2023 0:53:21 GMT
I have faith that Israel is not out to annihilate all ethnic groups under the control of Hamas and live in Gaza. Afterall Jews understand ethnic cleansing better than most. But it is unrealistic to think all civilian collateral damage can be avoided. I would further hope that Israel does not decapitate and burn people and rape and slaughter groups of innocents on their way thru Gaza to surgically eradicate Hamas. I also have faith that Israeli soldiers have their moral compass set.
And since this is an investing site I am happy that this war has not ruined our market rally.
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Post by steelpony10 on Oct 12, 2023 1:30:22 GMT
I have faith that Israel is not out to annihilate all ethnic groups under the control of Hamas and live in Gaza. Afterall Jews understand ethnic cleansing better than most. But it is unrealistic to think all civilian collateral damage can be avoided. I would further hope that Israel does not decapitate and burn people and rape and slaughter groups of innocents on their way thru Gaza to surgically eradicate Hamas. I also have faith that Israeli soldiers have their moral compass set. And since this is an investing site I am happy that this war has not ruined our market rally. Seen any pictures of the wild dogs snacking on body parts yet? Looters? All we see are sheets of whole? bodies arranged in neat rows. Same as in any war coverage. Morality and mercy are on vacation. Yeah war is good business for the suppliers just like the gold rush. That’s why we still have them. There’s greater money to be made on rebuilds.
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Post by bizman on Oct 12, 2023 3:26:36 GMT
One more thought on the idea of a 2 state solution. Effectively that is what we have had between Gaza and Israel in the last 10-ish years since Israel withdrew after the Gazans elected Hamas as their leadership, no? Please correct me if I am wrong on the details here.
Admittedly, the US had a false start with the Articles of Confederation before the 2nd try of the Constitution, but it seems to me the Palestinians need someone somewhat analogous to what William F. Buckley was to the conservative movement in the 1950's: a reasonable voice to expel extremists and make it safe for them to govern. Without it, how possibly can a 2 state solution work?
And speaking of William F. Buckley, the conservative movement in the US could use another genius who marshals logic and common sense in the service of conservative goals while weeding out the gadfly losers chasing figments and conspiracy theories. So I've got a couple of things on my wish list from Santa this year. So I've got that going for me, which is nice.
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Post by Norbert on Oct 12, 2023 4:38:45 GMT
Yes, the Palestinians need wise leadership in order for the two-state solution to be viable.
The challenge is the radical, Islamist elements among the Arabs in the Middle East. Egypt had a wise leader in the person of Anwar Sadat. He was assassinated by an Islamist as payback for signing a peace deal with Israel. Now Egypt has President El-Sisi, who deals with the Islamists like a surgeon deals with cancer.
I point out again that two million Arabs are Israeli citizens. Most will ask whether you're crazy if you suggest they become citizens in a new Palestinian state.
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Post by Norbert on Oct 12, 2023 4:56:15 GMT
richardsok said: "Destroy Hamas, yes. But I want nothing to do with liquidating a population."Agree, of course. Because, as someone has wisely said, "if your moral compass is attuned to the suffering of innocents of only one side, your compass is broken, and so is your humanity". Fred I understand the ethical issue, but it's not always possible to avoid killing innocents. In Japan the US calculated that it was worth sacrificing the population of two cities in order to bring WW II to a rapid conclusion. It would have cost a huge number of US (and Japanese) lives if the US had attempted a ground invasion of the Japanese mainland. It's the same situation in Gaza, except the IDF is proceeding block by block with loud warnings; not detonating an atomic bomb. All Hamas needs to do is surrender. Unfortunately, Jihadists think death in battle makes them martyrs, so they won't. So, Israel has no choice. I support the US support of Israel. Plus it's a bit odd that certain folks and media outlets only speak up when Israel retaliates, not when the Palestinians are firing missiles at Israeli civilian targets in the first place. Do you ever wonder why that's so?
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Post by FD1000 on Oct 12, 2023 8:37:55 GMT
Looks like Israel is blocking Gaza from basic services, such as water, gas and electricity until Hamas woould free the hostages.
The hospitals can't handle the situation too. That reminds the Romans who blocked a city until the population starve.
Chances the above works with Hamas is zero. Hamas have food and water in their tunnels.
The following is from my experience. I patrolled Gaza and the West Bank in the late 80s. These extreme Muslims would grab kids from their own people and used them as human shield. Any regular people who show any intention of resistance would be killed mutilated or beheaded.
Unfortunately, I don't see any viable solution. Israel is going to look bad in several weeks. The pressure to stop would be enormous. Israel can't go in building by building, it's a suicide. Regardless, thousands will lose their lives.
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Post by anovice on Oct 12, 2023 8:55:04 GMT
Looks like Israel is blocking Gaza from basic services, such as water, gas and electricity until Hamas woould free the hostages. The hospitals can't handle the situation too. That reminds the Romans who blocked a city until the population starve. Chances the above works with Hamas is zero. The following is from my experience. I patrolled Gaza and the West Bank in the late 80s. These extreme Muslims would grab kids from their own people and used them as human shield. Any regular people who show any intention of resistance would be killed mutilated or beheaded. Unfortunately, I don't see any viable solution. Israel is going to look bad in several weeks. The pressure to stop would be enormous. Israel can't go in building by building, it's a suicide. Regardless, thousands will lose their lives. Now is the time for Israel to present the alternatives to the world leaders. Help us eradicate Hamas in the safest way possible for civilians or we will go it alone.
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Post by FD1000 on Oct 12, 2023 9:41:40 GMT
There is no safe way. When someone wants to kill you and willing to die for it, making peace is impossible. When I was younger and naive l had more hope.
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