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Post by anovice on Oct 10, 2023 10:25:26 GMT
Yeah, it's pretty bad. I'm seeing some frightening scenes on Fox News of Jewish people being rounded up and driven off, clearly abused and terrified. How do you respond without becoming savage oneself? I also see videos of explosive blasts hitting muslim apartment complexes. I know, they started it. They brought it on themselves. They abetted the initial attacks and throughout the community they breed the poisonous death culture one generation to the next. But still..... how far does retaliation extend? Do they make the entire Gaza (with its 2 million population) a wasteland and drive a shattered people out into the desert? Is depopulation the plan? You cannot tell me the middle east, with all its vast wealth could not carve out a liveable community for the Palestinians, well removed from Israel. Looks like a decent solution is nowhere in the cards -- No one wants them around. Hamas has long made Gaza a wasteland. Regarding a livable community for the Palestinians, they already have one. It's called Jordan. The 2 million can join the 3 million across the Jordan River. Oh, that's right, King Hussein does not want them.
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Post by steelpony10 on Oct 10, 2023 10:37:13 GMT
Just a flair up in a centuries old conflict made worse by a U.N. gaff after WWII. Sad.
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Post by Norbert on Oct 10, 2023 11:04:36 GMT
Just a flair up in a centuries old conflict made worse by a U.N. gaff after WWII. Sad. Could you be more specific?
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Post by django on Oct 10, 2023 11:43:43 GMT
Yeah, it's pretty bad. I'm seeing some frightening scenes on Fox News of Jewish people being rounded up and driven off, clearly abused and terrified. How do you respond without becoming savage oneself? I also see videos of explosive blasts hitting muslim apartment complexes. I know, they started it. They brought it on themselves. They abetted the initial attacks and throughout the community they breed the poisonous death culture one generation to the next. But still..... how far does retaliation extend? Do they make the entire Gaza (with its 2 million population) a wasteland and drive a shattered people out into the desert? Is depopulation the plan? You cannot tell me the middle east, with all its vast wealth could not carve out a liveable community for the Palestinians, well removed from Israel. Looks like a decent solution is nowhere in the cards -- No one wants them around. Hamas has long made Gaza a wasteland. Regarding a livable community for the Palestinians, they already have one. It's called Jordan. The 2 million can join the 3 million across the Jordan River. Oh, that's right, King Hussein does not want them. For hundreds of years under Ottoman rule, Palestine was the area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean. It became "Trans Jordan" for the few decades of British rule, but for much of history, Palestine and Jordan were considered different regions with distinct ethnic groups.
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Post by Chahta on Oct 10, 2023 12:25:53 GMT
Yeah, it's pretty bad. I'm seeing some frightening scenes on Fox News of Jewish people being rounded up and driven off, clearly abused and terrified. How do you respond without becoming savage oneself? I also see videos of explosive blasts hitting muslim apartment complexes. I know, they started it. They brought it on themselves. They abetted the initial attacks and throughout the community they breed the poisonous death culture one generation to the next. But still..... how far does retaliation extend? Do they make the entire Gaza (with its 2 million population) a wasteland and drive a shattered people out into the desert? Is depopulation the plan? You cannot tell me the middle east, with all its vast wealth could not carve out a liveable community for the Palestinians, well removed from Israel. Looks like a decent solution is nowhere in the cards -- No one wants them around. Retaliation must extend to eternity. Hit squads go in and slaughter hundreds. It gets worse each time there is an attack. Now it is genocide, again. And the world watches. Nothing else has worked in Gaza so far in history. Maybe it's best to be a wasteland. Only Israel understands its value. Whatever is best for Israel's security. Palestinians, Hamas etc. don't want to go anywhere else. They want what belongs to Israel. Who gives up land; Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Iran? Why would anyone want them around? They cause death and destruction and now genocide. All they have to do is stop. They have ruined their lives. Could they become good neighbors and learn prosperity from Israel? The US will fight 2 proxy wars and go deeper in debt. "Now we must deal with Iran". What does that look like?
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Post by steelpony10 on Oct 10, 2023 14:15:04 GMT
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Post by Norbert on Oct 10, 2023 14:56:52 GMT
Judging by your link, it appears you think the creation of Israel is the problem. Is that correct? Please just tell us in plain English what you mean.
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mani
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Post by mani on Oct 10, 2023 14:58:34 GMT
However, I don't think Russia is behaving irrationally. Russia viewed the expansion of NATO to its doorstep as an existential threat. The Biden administration pushed for NATO expansion into Ukraine. Don't forget that many Ukrainians aligned with the Germans during WW II. So, Russia took action. Not being willing to accept Ukraine neutrality was a strategic blunder. Why push Russia into the Chinese and Iranian camp? I'd like to see Biden push for a negotiated solution with Russia in Ukraine. There's no happy ending on the horizon. Oh please. The only existential threat is Russia for Ukraine. They made it clear they want everything Ukrainian to disappear and have shown to be barely better than Hamas. As for "many Ukrainians aligned with the Germans during WW II" shall I remind you of who Russia was allied with at the beginning of WWII? If Ukraine gives up they'll get massacred/displaced/deported sooner or later. What's needed if for Russia to go through decolonization and get partitioned.
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Post by Norbert on Oct 10, 2023 15:03:06 GMT
However, I don't think Russia is behaving irrationally. Russia viewed the expansion of NATO to its doorstep as an existential threat. The Biden administration pushed for NATO expansion into Ukraine. Don't forget that many Ukrainians aligned with the Germans during WW II. So, Russia took action. Not being willing to accept Ukraine neutrality was a strategic blunder. Why push Russia into the Chinese and Iranian camp? I'd like to see Biden push for a negotiated solution with Russia in Ukraine. There's no happy ending on the horizon. Oh please. The only existential threat is Russia for Ukraine. They made it clear they want everything Ukrainian to disappear and have shown to be barely better than Hamas. As for "many Ukrainians aligned with the Germans during WW II" shall I remind you of who Russia was allied with at the beginning of WWII? If Ukraine gives up they'll get massacred/displaced/deported sooner or later. What's needed if for Russia to go through decolonization and get partitioned. Sorry for bringing this up. It's off topic. I only mentioned it because Archer pointed out the complexity of attacking Iran, partially given Russia's new relationship with the Islamic republic. My bad. I stand by my post concerning the impact of NATO's expansion to the East and do not think Russia is behaving irrationally, but this is not the place to explore the subject.
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mani
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Post by mani on Oct 10, 2023 15:04:15 GMT
The US will fight 2 proxy wars and go deeper in debt. Proxy wars, at a cost of maybe 0.2% of GDP is not gets us into debt. Lack of revenue (much too low as a % of GDP compared to peer nations) due to lack of compliance and overly generous tax cuts, as well as a bloated medicare would be good places to look at if we want to really reduce deficits.
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Post by steelpony10 on Oct 10, 2023 15:12:47 GMT
Norbert , That move by the U.N. didn’t help resolve a centuries old problem in my opinion. It just seems to have created another endless fight for the motherland with occasional flair ups and no end result. Israel will wipe these guys out and their children will pick up the torch some day. Counting 1948 and 1973 maybe that’s a fourth generation. In that light and from past history this makes sense to me.
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Post by howaya on Oct 10, 2023 15:38:39 GMT
I agree that dealing with Iran is big challenge. However, I don't think Russia is behaving irrationally. Russia viewed the expansion of NATO to its doorstep as an existential threat. The Biden administration pushed for NATO expansion into Ukraine. Don't forget that many Ukrainians aligned with the Germans during WW II. So, Russia took action. Not being willing to accept Ukraine neutrality was a strategic blunder. Why push Russia into the Chinese and Iranian camp? I'd like to see Biden push for a negotiated solution with Russia in Ukraine. There's no happy ending on the horizon. Norbert if you watch any number of interviews with John McCain in September 2014 you may not attribute so much of the causes and effects to Biden that lead to the current mess in Ukraine. Simply google "John McCain Crimea" or, more specifically, watch the video entitled "Putin is 'rebuilding Russian empire' says Senator McCain ..." on Youtube. It is a very telling piece just over three minutes long. To McCain's credit, he appears prescient. Further research about McCain will expose you to facts that he worked diligently to arm Ukraine and make it a NATO member.
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Post by FD1000 on Oct 10, 2023 15:39:39 GMT
The problem has been a small % of extreme Muslims which controls the majority. The Muslim countries have been fighting each other for centuries regardless of Israel or the USA. These extreme Muslims are in many places, from India to the Philippines to Europe. All you need is blowing up things to scare many people. Capturing the extreme is very difficult, time consuming and a lot of resources. Just talked to couple of friends in Israel and it looks to me the population is tired and not in great spirit because the rockets are everywhere even in Tel Aviv metro and there are several sirens each day. That means going down to a safe room in each building. School is out too, which is another stress. I'm listening free to Israel TV app, channel 11, all in Hebrew. There are things happening all the time.
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Post by archer on Oct 10, 2023 15:50:09 GMT
The problem has been a small % of extreme Muslims which controls the majority. The Muslim countries have been fighting each other for many years regardless of Israel or the USA. These extreme Muslims are in many places, from India to the Philippines to Europe. All you need is blowing up things to scare many people. Capturing the extreme is very difficult, time consuming and a lot of resources. Just talked to couple of friends in Israel and it looks to me the population is tired and not in great spirit because the rockets are everywhere even in Tel Aviv metro and there are several sirens each day. That means going down to a safe room in each building. School is out too, which is another stress. I'm listening free to Israel TV app, channel 11, all in Hebrew. There are things happening all the time. +1 This isn't a conflict that can be resolved by everyone agreeing on geographical boundaries. Conflict in the middle east is more about people not respecting different ideologies right to exist. I get that Israel as a state is seen by it's neighbors as an imposition, but to Israel's credit, they have respected others beliefs as long as it doesn't mean being attacked.
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Post by Norbert on Oct 10, 2023 16:29:37 GMT
howayaAgain, I want to stay on topic, not get into a discussion about Russia - Ukraine. We had a good discussion on the topic a year or so ago; I suggest you search for it here on Big Bang if interested. Thanks for your understanding.
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Post by mnfish on Oct 10, 2023 16:47:25 GMT
This war has been going on for 75 years in some fashion, and you think it's going to end anytime soon? Nowadays, wars never totally end.
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Post by Mustang on Oct 10, 2023 19:24:02 GMT
From the dawn of time there have been wars and rumors of wars. And, it is not just humans that fight wars. The great apes fight over resources, feeding grounds. Humans just take it to another level also fighting over philosophy. Usually the two are related. Differences in philosophy or religion is often used to justify a war for resources. Defenders of the aggressor often accuses the victim for causing it. This is like saying a little old lady who is mugged, beaten and robbed in a subway is at fault simply because she was there. I do not believe Ukraine was attacked because someone thought it would join NATO. Ukraine couldn't meet NATO qualifications. If that was the reason then Russia made a huge mistake. Sweden and Finland are now joining NATO while Ukraine remains unqualified. NATO's border with Russia is now longer than ever. I believe the attack was over resources. Eastern Ukraine has one of the worlds largest reserves of natural gas and it is a huge exporter of wheat. The democracies of Europe depend on Ukrainian exports. There is also an out of context justification that Russia attacked Ukraine because of Nazis. Before WWII when Germany and the USSR were allies, they intended to divide Europe between themselves. The Soviet Union had already conquered Ukraine and had used forced migration to occupy its rich farmland. Russia shipped thousands of Ukrainians in trains to desolate parts of Russia to die. When Germany attacked Russia, many Ukrainians joined the Nazis thinking Germany would free them from Soviet oppression. Unfortunately, they were just trading one oppressive master for another. There may still be Nazis in Ukraine but they were no threat to Russia. So, which excuse is better? Pick one. It's still nothing more than blaming the victim. I am hardly an expert but religion is without a doubt one of the biggest justifications for war over resources. War is not nice. War is killing people and breaking things. And there is always, always collateral damage. That's why it should be the last resort for settling disputes. I much prefer diplomacy. Unfortunately diplomacy doesn't always work. It is impossible to negotiate from a position of weakness. Sheep do not have the ability to negotiate with coyotes. Predators always attack the weak. The only way the weak survive is if a protector stands between them and the coyotes. Not long ago a young Great Pyrenees was guarding a flock of sheep when 11 coyotes attacked. He stood his ground and killed 8 of them before the rest ran away. www.outdoorlife.com/survival/sheepdog-kills-eight-coyotes/There are other sheep dogs, like Border Collies, that are just as dedicated and just as willing to fight. Unfortunately, they just aren't big enough to take on a pack that large. The democracies of the world have for too long relied upon the defense umbrella of the United States. Many have defense forces but they are smaller. Now the predators of the world sense weakness. They see that the United States has depleted it strategic oil reserves relying on adversaries for more. They hear that it cannot supply Ukraine with more ammunition and equipment. They take advantage of its inability to protect its own border and are using a mass migration to overwhelm the US economy, to ship in deadly drugs and military age men. They know that the US military is more focused on diversity than military readiness. They sense that the Great Pyrenees has become old and weak. That it can no longer fight a pack of coyotes. They sense that the United State's defense umbrella has holes and that the United State no longer has the will or the ability to fight a multi-front war. China, Russia, and Iran are working together. Just as cunning as coyotes they are moving pieces across a chess board hoping their opponents, the democracies of the world, will not see their overall strategy until its too late. The only thing that will deter them is strength. And they don't think we have it anymore.
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Post by bizman on Oct 10, 2023 20:22:33 GMT
What a great continuing tragedy. As with 12 year old boys, both have reasons for their enmity that blame the other.
But at its base, to me, the issue is this. Jews have been the world's biggest "scapegoat group" throughout history, culminating in the horrors of the Holocaust. See the brilliant work of Rene Girard to expand on this.
Arab and Muslim leaders have mis-ruled their subjects and mis-directed the anger of their peoples' onto the Jews. See the above comment on the scapegoat mechanism.
The only 2 state solution the radicals will accept is one where one of the 2 states is in Hell and contains all of the Jews.
While tragic hardships exist on both sides, it doesn't seem difficult to pick the side of relative virtue here. Israel doesn't want to wipe all Muslims off the map.
The Holocaust put an end to Jews turning the other cheek. They have a right to exist and defend themselves. God help us all.
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Post by FD1000 on Oct 10, 2023 21:21:36 GMT
Mustang, great thoughtful post and expansion of mine. Bizman,another good one. The main problems are: 1) The terrorists can lose 100 times, they only need to win once. The results will be predictable. 2) The Jews were scapegoats for centuries, but a new generation grew up, I'm one of them. The attitude is completely different, but only in Israel. No more weak Jews, the only way is to defend our country, otherwise we die. The Jews anywhere else, including in the US think that negotiations with someone who wants to kill can achieve something. Only strength does that, but Israelis tried that anyway and failed. Only after I immigrated to the US I got it. Looking from far made it clear. 3) The Israeli army is also different than most. I never experienced anyone yelling at me. The whole process is based on explanation why we need to do it and because it's a military of the people, the line between commanders to the troops is loser. As a soldier you can refuse to obey and command to hurt no combative people. BTW, that's why high tech works well too. Anyone can state an opinion, even one that contradicts the CEO, as long as you can justify it.
Another predictable outcome. Soon, the Palestinians are going to ask for a ceasefire. I hope they don't get one, but they will, and Israel will not achieve their goals.
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Post by Chahta on Oct 10, 2023 23:22:24 GMT
Mustang, great thoughtful post and expansion of mine. Bizman,another good one. The main problems are: 1) The terrorists can lose 100 times, they only need to win once. The results will be predictable. 2) The Jews were scapegoats for centuries, but a new generation grew up, I'm one of them. The attitude is completely different, but only in Israel. No more weak Jews, the only way is to defend our country, otherwise we die. The Jews anywhere else, including in the US think that negotiations with someone who wants to kill can achieve something. Only strength does that, but Israelis tried that anyway and failed. Only after I immigrated to the US I got it. Looking from far made it clear. 3) The Israeli army is also different than most. I never experienced anyone yelling at me. The whole process is based on explanation why we need to do it and because it's a military of the people, the line between commanders to the troops is loser. As a soldier you can refuse to obey and command to hurt no combative people. BTW, that's why high tech works well too. Anyone can state an opinion, even one that contradicts the CEO, as long as you can justify it. Another predictable outcome. Soon, the Palestinians are going to ask for a ceasefire. I hope they don't get one, but they will, and Israel will not achieve their goals. Cease fire or not, I don’t believe this will be business as usual this time. Once the hostage situation is dealt with all hell will break loose on hamas.
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Post by anovice on Oct 11, 2023 0:07:00 GMT
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Post by richardsok on Oct 11, 2023 1:36:36 GMT
I think we are roughly agreed that Israel will and should do what it must to defend itself. Hamas can lose a hundred times, but Israel must never lose even once. (That was true when I first heard it in the 70s and remains true today.) We can all watch the videos and deplore what we see. The greater Middle Eastern public will have varying attitudes about the conflict -- from red-eyed fury to indifference. Well and good.
From my perspective, the question is: what, if any, role should the U.S. play? Yes, I know, some will say Israel is America's sole ally in the Middle East. True. But it is also true that our VERY lopsided alliance has cost the US dearly. The Jewish community in the US wields FAR greater influence over mass communications, entertainment and congress than their numbers suggest. Everyone knows this.... and our population has had a half century of pro-Israel propaganda. We endured 9/11 (and other terror attacks) solely because we have been so closely allied with Jewish interests. We have reaped implacable hatred, not because of rock n roll or blue jeans or hatred of Jeffersonian principles but, to the vast majority of the Islamic Middle East "my enemy's friend is my enemy." Let's add our follies in Afganistan and Iraq have probably set us back a generation or so with the greater Islamic public.
I'm not going to suggest we turn our backs on the Jews. Far from it. But I wonder if we would be wiser to have a more nuanced position toward the ME like, say France or Europe in general.
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Post by bizman on Oct 11, 2023 4:29:47 GMT
I think we are roughly agreed that Israel will and should do what it must to defend itself. Hamas can lose a hundred times, but Israel must never lose even once. (That was true when I first heard it in the 70s and remains true today.) We can all watch the videos and deplore what we see. The greater Middle Eastern public will have varying attitudes about the conflict -- from red-eyed fury to indifference. Well and good. From my perspective, the question is: what, if any, role should the U.S. play? Yes, I know, some will say Israel is America's sole ally in the Middle East. True. But it is also true that our VERY lopsided alliance has cost the US dearly. The Jewish community in the US wields FAR greater influence over mass communications, entertainment and congress than their numbers suggest. Everyone knows this.... and our population has had a half century of pro-Israel propaganda. We endured 9/11 (and other terror attacks) solely because we have been so closely allied with Jewish interests. We have reaped implacable hatred, not because of rock n roll or blue jeans or hatred of Jeffersonian principles but, to the vast majority of the Islamic Middle East "my enemy's friend is my enemy." Let's add our follies in Afganistan and Iraq have probably set us back a generation or so with the greater Islamic public. I'm not going to suggest we turn our backs on the Jews. Far from it. But I wonder if we would be wiser to have a more nuanced position toward the ME like, say France or Europe in general. With all due respect richardsok , I disagree with most of your premise. Any pro-Israel propaganda that may have taken place has been subsumed by the almost universal distaste amongst academics (and hence students) and the media for the last 30-50 years. Go on an Ivy League campus and make a pro-Israel statement and you are taking your life in your hands. The veiled references to shadowy forces controlling the media and finance go back to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. But I've never been a fan of conspiracy theories. (Has anyone else noticed that few people believe in only one conspiracy theory? I have a sister who has swallowed the whole can of sardines in that regard.). The radical Islamists hate America because they hate Western Civilization and modernity and want to keep their people trapped in a medieval dystopia. The mullahs in Iran want to destroy the US whether or not Israel exists. Anyway, I doubt any of us will solve the world's problems. I certainly don't have all the answers. I pray to God that we will each look inside and try to better ourselves and stop searching for literal and figurative scapegoats to destroy, thinking that will solve our problems. It never does. As I said before, God help us all. By the way, in case anyone wonders, I am not Jewish. I am Irish Catholic, with a bit of French and German thrown in. Though I'm not proud of some of the history of people of my faith doing ill to Jews with the idea that they are "Christ Killers" and other such tripe. We are all sinners and need to repent for our wrongs.
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Post by Norbert on Oct 11, 2023 4:53:01 GMT
richardsok"I'm not going to suggest we turn our backs on the Jews. Far from it. But I wonder if we would be wiser to have a more nuanced position toward the ME like, say France or Europe in general." I disagree and would say it's the other way around. France and much of Europe are going through a crisis not because of their Jews, but because of their open door policy to migrants, mostly Muslims. While the Jews are well integrated and contribute to society, a majority of Muslims are and do not. There are endless examples of violent riots, abuse of women, and terrible crimes committed disproportionately by the Muslim community. The Islamists have little affection for France because it has a "more nuanced" position towards the Middle East. They hate France because of its secular policies and liberal attitudes. Ex-colonies like Mali and Niger have become no-go zones for the French because of militant Islamist activity. (Of course, if France adopted Sharia law, things might calm down.) By the way, you forgot to mention the disproportionate number of Nobel Prizes awarded to Jews. It's gotta be a conspiracy! We need race-based rules to ensure fairness! N.
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Post by FD1000 on Oct 11, 2023 5:51:10 GMT
I already said it. Muslims kill other Muslims, including their own citizens, hence Israel and US are just an excuse.
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Post by anovice on Oct 11, 2023 10:42:35 GMT
Historically, Israel has done a poor job with public relations. This time, they are doing far better.
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Post by Chahta on Oct 11, 2023 11:23:06 GMT
“But I wonder if we would be wiser to have a more nuanced position toward the ME like, say France or Europe in general.”
It’s hard to be “nuanced” when we throw our money around supporting Israel and other countries. Ukraine is a newer example. But I believe that support is the correct thing to do. We break Iraq and Afghanistan then spend billions to “fix” it. Hardy nuanced. So yes maybe that approach is best. However the US will forever be hated by the muslim world. Our tribe is so different and religion is the root cause in my opinion. France has not had a 9/11 but has had vicious attacks. Muslims are now 10% of France and growing. One day attacks will not be needed.
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Post by richardsok on Oct 11, 2023 13:10:54 GMT
Norbert & others --
When I suggest a "more nuanced" view toward the Middle East, it in NO way translates into a wish for open borders. You and I are both well established on these boards in OPPOSING mass third world & muslim immigration. We've posted many times on the topic.
Very true, your mention of Nobel prizes among the Jewish community. Also true; as a group, Ashkenazie Jews routinely outscore white Americans in all kinds of intelligence and achievement tests.
And so what?
However true all the above facts are, I believe their mention is a diversion from my issues (A) the American people HAVE breathed Israeli propaganda through the news and thru Hollywood and from Congress all our lives and (B): HOWEVER INTELLIGENT AND SUCCESSFUL ISRAELIS MAY BE, would the US be wise to at least try to be less vigorously allied with one side?
Have the US people not already paid a terrible price for our media-driven, congressional-money-driven one sidedness?
I grant you the bloody-minded implacable religious zealots would be little moved by our attempt to be even handed, but if we were not so linked to one side, might we not have greater moral sway among the moderate ME countries to support a solution? With mutual good will (and a lot of oil money) is slow re-settlement really such an impossibility?
Or is your better idea to throw up our hands and let the blood flow?
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Post by anovice on Oct 11, 2023 13:39:09 GMT
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Post by Norbert on Oct 11, 2023 13:39:18 GMT
richardsok, I honestly don't know what you're talking about. The US is very even handed. We are friends with many Arab/Muslim nations, including Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Pakistan, etc. No, we're not friends with Iran; and we support nations being threatened by the Islamic Republic. I don't know of any "Israeli propaganda", though I certainly hear a lot of left-wing propaganda about an "occupation" and "apartheid state". What are you talking about? We have twisted Israel's arm to achieve peace deals with Egypt and Jordan. President Clinton went all-in on a deal with the Palestinians involving Rabin and Arafat, brokering a deal for a state with capital in East Jerusalem. Arafat walked away. It's simply not possible for reasonable people to negotiate with the Palestinian leadership, either 25 years ago or today. They are radicalized religious fanatics like ISIS. They are terrorists. How can we be even-handed with terrorists? You just saw the true face of the Palestinians; Hamas was congratulated for its butchery by Abbas and by the Iranians. This morning I met an Israeli friend (have returned to Crete). He lives in Jerusalem, he fought in three wars, and he also has many Arab friends. 20% of Israelis are Arabs, so no surprise. The Arabs he (and I) know want nothing to do with a proposed Palestinian state. My friend lost 15 friends from South Israel kibbutzim, another 30 missing. Hamas must be permanently eliminated, as was done with ISIS. President Biden has made the same comparison. The IDF has started work, making a point of warning residents to evacuate. It's difficult work when the terrorists hide among civilians. I certainly support the creation of a safe haven for innocent civilians. I don't see how the US can be "even handed" with Hamas! You'll have to explain what that means. My take is that tolerance for terrorism leads to more terrorism.
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