|
|
Post by sidbub on Jul 19, 2023 16:50:47 GMT
What I mean is I am looking for in my retirement a CEF with some diversity such as preferred, IV grade bonds, equity with a reasonable yield with limited volatility and stable distribution. Is that too much to ask for? I have some preferred CEFs now as well as some BDCs and reits. Would appreciate any comments. Thank you.
|
|
|
|
Post by yogibearbull on Jul 19, 2023 19:13:27 GMT
Not a CEF, but an ETF of CEFs - PCEF. It has a high ER of 1.99% with the ETF management fee of only 0.50% and the rest is from the ERs of the underlying CEFs. It is a world-allocation hybrid and includes the things you listed and some more. It is volatile, so, with only 32.45% nominal-equity, it SD is only slightly under that for SP500.
Some may suggest to look at its holdings and pick out half-dozen CEFs to own directly.
CEFs can be stomach-churning investments. So, you may not find many to hold and sleep well in retirement. Proceed with caution.
|
|
|
|
Post by steelpony10 on Jul 19, 2023 19:40:10 GMT
sidbub , Reasonable yield, limited volatility and stable distributions would all have to have numbers attached plus you’re right that’s too much to ask. Those are all unknowns. So take a look at BME and screen for other managed funds.
|
|
|
|
Post by sidbub on Jul 19, 2023 20:08:13 GMT
Checked on that PCEF but seems to have a rather high expense number at 1.99% That is someting that I could be looking into that type of fund.
|
|
|
|
Post by xray on Jul 20, 2023 18:34:59 GMT
sidbub, Your: What I mean is I am looking for in my retirement a CEF with some diversity such as preferred, IV grade bonds, equity with a reasonable yield with limited volatility and stable distribution. Is that too much to ask for? I have some preferred CEFs now as well as some BDCs and reits. Would appreciate any comments. ---------- You are asking for a lot (IMHO). Managers change, portfolio's change, markets change, etc and day-to-day variables are always in play with CEF's as we speak. With that said.... Examples (CEF's): 1... AVK appears to be in a insider selling mode. 120,000sh @ 11.68 on 7/18 for no apparent reason that can currently be seen by analysis 2... DPG is currently selling some preferred shares (200,000sh on 7/14) but DPG cut their dividend previously and has been in process of taking a bath in MktPrc as investors have been taking notice. See previous posts for additional information CEF's can be very volatile, especially in any continual down market where "any" "DISTRIBUTION" type CEF is cut continually in their Monthly/Quarterly distributions. Many CEF investors then sell (or reduce shares being held) distribution type CEF's for "Dividend" paying types (where their NAV's are "NOT" tied to distribution payouts} Currently, if you have not already noticed, the market is in a continual upswing and we can't fight the market. Many investors are now increasing their portfolio holdings from 50% to 75% but are still not totally in. Most of us, I would think are "adding" shares to existing portfolio positions that we are already holding and "dollar cost average "UP" from our previous market buy positions (through analysis). In addition, we are taking notice of the many CEF's that are not performing and are selling some positions (selling outright, or reducing shares) for Capital Gains..... Bottom Line: The days of buy/hold forever have long past (especially with AI now coming into play and we have change with the times). Many of us have been using " Performance" (portfolio's tracked weekly) to control any of our buying selling habits. Keep in mind that Mutual Funds and CEF's change their portfolio (as a minimum if not already being changed monthly with following the insider buy/sell activity) before each Qtr ends for shareholder reporting (losers have already been sold). Live Long and Prosper....
|
|
|
|
Post by sidbub on Jul 21, 2023 14:26:13 GMT
In my previous investing history I made some mistakes such as chasing yield and listing to a lot of hype on various CEFs. Smarter now, I hope and learned hard lessons. Funds that I have purchased years ago I still have as if I sold them I would lose principal but I still am receiving distributions that have been shaved over the years. I do add shares from time to time on what I think are more like core holdings to increase my income. I do like the ETF PCEF posted previously but expense % is high. I like to diversity. Is there anything similar to that with a perhaps a lessor expense % that has had a relatively good history?
|
|
|
|
Post by richardsok on Jul 21, 2023 23:03:32 GMT
I'm going to second yogi's idea. In addition to the yield, PCEF has several other things going for it, not least of which it has fallen hard in price and is now on a strong but gentle bullish trend, pulling out of its lows, repeating the gawdawful mess it hit back during the worst of the Covid crisis. OK, so you don't like the 2% admin fee, but you should know only about .5% goes to PCEF management. The bulk is the various fees from the underlying CEFs. To blithely eliminate a fund that meets your needs merely because you resent its fee structure strikes me as faulty thinking.
I used to own it, but when it started dropping a few years ago, I unloaded and never happened to revisit it until now.
If you're still not happy, you might buy a block, and treat it as a trading asset -- tracking its chart, and OWN IT ONLY WHEN ITS WORKING FOR YOU. You BUY or SELL as indicated by the SLOPE of its 20-day moving average. Could not be simpler. (Or trade it on the MACD technicals which, are currently firmly bullish.)
Heck, I might return to it myself.
|
|
|
|
Post by retiredat48 on Jul 22, 2023 3:57:59 GMT
sidbub, et al....To my knowledge the SEC requires CEFs to include in "fees/expenses" the percent interest a fund pays on borrowed money. Most CEFs we talk about are leveraged. So the UNDERLYINMG HOLDINGS OF CEFS, likely have fees that are not management related. Thus saying a 2.5+% fee exists may be misleading re dividend yields/total returns. I have not investigated PCEF in detail. R48
|
|
|
|
Post by steadyeddy on Jul 22, 2023 13:59:48 GMT
In my previous investing history I made some mistakes such as chasing yield and listing to a lot of hype on various CEFs. Smarter now, I hope and learned hard lessons. Funds that I have purchased years ago I still have as if I sold them I would lose principal but I still am receiving distributions that have been shaved over the years. I do add shares from time to time on what I think are more like core holdings to increase my income. I do like the ETF PCEF posted previously but expense % is high. I like to diversity. Is there anything similar to that with a perhaps a lessor expense % that has had a relatively good history? , I also sit on paper losses in municipal CEFs and decided to stick with them collecting tax-free income monthly. Will they ever recover? who knows. Does it make sense selling them at a substantial loss, no. I think what you are doing makes sense. I will be honest I am not running out to buy more to dollar cost average the losers. retiredat48 has beaten the concept of pyramid-up into my head and I have stopped averaging down many moons ago. The choices are HOLD or FOLD. |
|
|
|
Post by steelpony10 on Jul 22, 2023 14:34:02 GMT
sidbub , steadyeddy , I’ve had a whole different experience dedicating a great deal of our portfolio to leveraged investments buying and holding with no intention of ever selling them accept as a last resort for LTC or by an heir. Values are a distant second to high income for us. Investing since the bank crisis we’ve received all our initial investments back for about 70% now and I look at that cash flow as “free money” from now on to be invested, spent or left in cash. Our whole group of income holdings are “down” about 7%+ right now. By adding some excess income to needs every time the present value fall below the cost basis the result is more cheap income and a greater possibility of cap gains for someone down the line. I think maybe some overlook the fact that all bonds seem to trade in a range. The drops or gains won’t be as much as equities which have no up or down limits. This trait plus year around cash flow no matter the market conditions of our leveraged bonds led me to believe equities are the most risky of all and are more suitable for pre retirees with a longer time to recover value swoons which could be devastating to spend down retirees.
|
|
|
|
Post by retiredat48 on Jul 22, 2023 15:03:18 GMT
sidbub , yogibearbull , steelpony10 , xray , richardsok , retiredat48 , steadyeddy , steadyeddie posted: "I think what you are doing makes sense. I will be honest I am not running out to buy more to dollar cost average the losers. retiredat48 has beaten the concept of pyramid-up into my head and I have stopped averaging down many moons ago."----------------------------------------- Yeaaa, eddie...sit down at the bar for a drink...I'm buying. Your post is music to my ears!  good day R48
|
|
|
|
Post by steadyeddy on Jul 22, 2023 15:59:22 GMT
sidbub , steadyeddy , I’ve had a whole different experience dedicating a great deal of our portfolio to leveraged investments buying and holding with no intention of ever selling them accept as a last resort for LTC or by an heir. Values are a distant second to high income for us. Investing since the bank crisis we’ve received all our initial investments back for about 70% now and I look at that cash flow as “free money” from now on to be invested, spent or left in cash. Our whole group of income holdings are “down” about 7%+ right now. By adding some excess income to needs every time the present value fall below the cost basis the result is more cheap income and a greater possibility of cap gains for someone down the line. I think maybe some overlook the fact that all bonds seem to trade in a range. The drops or gains won’t be as much as equities which have no up or down limits. This trait plus year around cash flow no matter the market conditions of our leveraged bonds led me to believe equities are the most risky of all and are more suitable for pre retirees with a longer time to recover value swoons which could be devastating to spend down retirees. , the real issue with levered investments (particularly CEFs) is whether they are employing ROC to pay the distributions. As long as ROC is minimal to zero, I agree with your approach. But, in general, ROC is necessitated due to higher borrowing costs - which destroys the NAV. So, I am watching my muni CEFs for ROC and if I see high ROC I will dump them & go invest somewhere else. |
|
|
|
Post by xray on Jul 22, 2023 20:01:12 GMT
richardsok, Your: I'm going to second yogi's idea. In addition to the yield, PCEF has several other things going for it, not least of which it has fallen hard in price and is now on a strong but gentle bullish trend, pulling out of its lows, repeating the gawdawful mess it hit back during the worst of the Covid crisis. OK, so you don't like the 2% admin fee, but you should know only about .5% goes to PCEF management. The bulk is the various fees from the underlying CEFs. To blithely eliminate a fund that meets your needs merely because you resent its fee structure strikes me as faulty thinking. I used to own it, but when it started dropping a few years ago, I unloaded and never happened to revisit it until now. If you're still not happy, you might buy a block, and treat it as a trading asset -- tracking its chart, and OWN IT ONLY WHEN ITS WORKING FOR YOU. You BUY or SELL as indicated by the SLOPE of its 20-day moving average. Could not be simpler. (Or trade it on the MACD technicals which, are currently firmly bullish.) Heck, I might return to it myself. ---------- In the same boat that you were. Owned it once upon a time but sold out when analysis data told me to. I don't return to sold out securities unless it is a "Distribution/Dividend" swap situation. My thinking is that the current Manager is making some bad choices in the market and he is supposed to be the financial guru guarding our money. The Manager should know when to buy/sell and we should "ALWAYS" be tracking the managers performance. If their is a manager change, then I might take a look again (after a 6-12 month period) to again look at their current MANAGERS: performance.... If/when buying again (your thinking process), I would (again sole opinion) put it in a "taxable" account and then make a swap out to a non-taxable if/when the performance has been shown to improve substantially from our initial buying activity (0-2%).... Live Long and Prosper....
|
|
