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Post by steadyeddy on Jul 1, 2023 15:21:25 GMT
I am ignorant about Govt student loans. Do they fund just tuition or tuition, board, and incidentals, etc. such that students do not have to take any part time jobs? This is not the first S Ct. case on Affirmative action. In 2003 in Grutter v. Bollinger S Ct. ruled that race could be a factor if narrowly tailored. I have not looked at the one ruled yesterday. Does the current ruling modify the 2003 ruling? If so, how? Based on later posts, I surmise that Govt student loans are given only for tuition. I took private loans to study and was desperate to do any job and paid the loans off fast - 10% interest rate teaches one the effect of compounding. anitya, see below what chatGPT said about student loans...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2023 15:26:10 GMT
Schools have figured out that loans have been available, and therefore raised the costs for education - which became a feedback loop. And now everyone (schools and student borrowers) want hand-me-downs from the government. Not fair and not typical of capitalistic society. Whoa...whoa... PPP Loans. Bank Bailouts. Airline Bailouts. Auto Bailouts. Farm Subsidies. Billions in funding to elite schools. Apparently the above are fair and typical of a capitalistic society. I guess helping huge corporations == good, helping individuals == bad. The drawback I see with student loan relief is there also has to be tuition reform at the same time.. Colleges will just raise rates more to milk more money than they do now for the 400 to 1 (made up numbers) administrators to student ratio. All the while professors are on sabbatical and teaching assistants teach the classes. Your deduction is incorrect. I, for one, and I think many, agree that these bailouts need the same scrutiny but they are Congressional actions which was the rub on student loans..
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Post by archer on Jul 1, 2023 16:12:14 GMT
I wonder how many young people blindly embark on higher education, without running the numbers on debt, interest, and future income potential.
Two scenarios one can consider and apply some cost engineering to.
#1 borrow a few hundred thousand and get a job paying X now and X+ some years later, but, have to pay of a loan.
#2 Enter a trade as an apprentice and start getting paid immediately, and in a few years make $X (probably a good bit less than option 1, and also, not much prospect for future wage increase. But, rather than paying off student debt, pay off a mortgage.
I know a dentist who had the above talk with his sons and encouraged them to really think about the cost/benefit of whatever path they chose. I lost track of them but IIRC they both got full scholarships and became professional musicians. I'm sure there are other options as well. I just wonder how often and thoroughly people look at the cost/benefit of high priced colleges. When I was young, many kids were pretty much herded into higher education by their parents and school counselors, but education was relatively cheap then compared to today.
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Post by anovice on Jul 1, 2023 16:16:36 GMT
On Affirmative Action at universities, I view it as racism, specifically intended to "help" Black students. Race should play no part in the selection process. Having said that, I can see making challenging individual circumstances (regardless of race) one factor in determining admission. Some credit is due to kids who successfully overcome adversity of different types; but no one is entitled to special treatment because of the color of skin they were born with. I recall high school in San Francisco, having just moved there from France. I made a Chinese friend and even joined an all-Chinese Boy Scout troop in Chinatown. Several of the kids were poor, but that didn't stop them from studying hard and even helping their families make ends meet. There was a tendency for other students to make fun of "overly serious" Chinese kids; no Asian kid ever won my high school's "Most likely to succeed" award.
The average salary of Asians is now higher that that of Whites in the US; that was achieved without "affirmative action". It was achieved with hard work and a pattern of families valuing the success of their children above almost anything else.
(Click to enlarge.)
View Attachment
On loan forgiveness, I fail to see why other citizens should bail out a student who made poor financial decisions. That's unfair and it undermines personal responsibility. Having said that, I can imagine offering public or military service as a way to reduce or pay off student debt. But, no "free lunch" please.
That's my 2.
N.
Asians' hard work is evident... look at the CEOs of some of the top corporations... Microsoft, Alphabet, Adobe, IBM, Nvidia, FedEx,.... the list goes on. Asians are dominating (relative to their population size) in top jobs. In fact, the Harvard case points out that Asians (along with Whites) were discriminated against. steadyeddy: "In fact, the Harvard case points out that Asians (along with Whites) were discriminated against." Well, that has come to an end. If you were born into a family that your dad went to Harvard, or your mom was a donor, or your brother a professor, admission preferences are still allowed. The court struck down Affirmative Action for almost everyone but white people.
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Post by johntaylor on Jul 1, 2023 16:27:25 GMT
Anticipating the Sup Ct would do this, the Administration had the Sec of Educ embark on new rulemaking re the Higher Educ Act.
However, rulemaking pursuant to the Admin Procedure Act is to implement existing statutes (not rewrite them), so they are headed down the same path of trying to tack on desired items without going to Congress.
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Post by catdog on Jul 1, 2023 16:32:30 GMT
I am glad they are not allowing the loan forgiveness. It seems to me that there used to be programs whereby a teacher, nurse (maybe others) could temporarily relocate to an underserved area. Their time served there would accumulate "X" amount of loan forgiveness. This may not be available anymore. Another one of my ("genius idea's ) idea's was to forgive $10000 of debt for every year served in the military. The military needs people. My recent issue of Legion Magazine shows that the Army is taking drastic steps to increase recruitment. One idea was to allow certain intelectually qualified people to serve even if they don't physically qualify. Obesity is responsible for many recruitment shortfalls. Finally, getting your batchelors degree, masters degree and doctorate in one fell swooop is asking for debt. This obviously all comes from a high school graduate with only a few college classes to my credit. Catdog
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Post by archer on Jul 1, 2023 16:48:53 GMT
I am glad they are not allowing the loan forgiveness. It seems to me that there used to be programs whereby a teacher, nurse (maybe others) could temporarily relocate to an underserved area. Their time served there would accumulate "X" amount of loan forgiveness. This may not be available anymore. Another one of my ("genius idea's ) idea's was to forgive $10000 of debt for every year served in the military. The military needs people. My recent issue of Legion Magazine shows that the Army is taking drastic steps to increase recruitment. One idea was to allow certain intelectually qualified people to serve even if they don't physically qualify. Obesity is responsible for many recruitment shortfalls. Finally, getting your batchelors degree, masters degree and doctorate in one fell swooop is asking for debt. This obviously all comes from a high school graduate with only a few college classes to my credit. Catdog My daughter is studying to be a nurse practitioner. According to her those programs are still available.
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Post by Chahta on Jul 1, 2023 18:04:44 GMT
“Student loans are outrageous now, people borrow 100’s of thousands of dollars to get “Mickey mouse” degrees, for which there is NO WAY they will ever earn the money to pay it off! ”
Maybe the schools should cut bloated staffing to make education more affordable. Maybe the schools should counsel students better on meaningful financial degrees. Maybe congress should create a plan for affordable education. Oh but wait, we are so screwed with debt we can’t do much of anything. I want. I want. I want……… I am sick and tired of government as the solution for everything. Government is not one big special program for each special group.
I have proposed before that all debt payments be deducted directly from income before taxes. If a person makes $100k and they make $20k in payments the income is only $80. Easy peasy.
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Post by chang on Jul 1, 2023 18:23:06 GMT
Chahta "Maybe the schools should cut bloated staffing to make education more affordable." A good Chief Diversity Officer earns well into six figures.
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Post by Norbert on Jul 1, 2023 18:31:07 GMT
Asians' hard work is evident... look at the CEOs of some of the top corporations... Microsoft, Alphabet, Adobe, IBM, Nvidia, FedEx,.... the list goes on. Asians are dominating (relative to their population size) in top jobs. In fact, the Harvard case points out that Asians (along with Whites) were discriminated against. steadyeddy: "In fact, the Harvard case points out that Asians (along with Whites) were discriminated against." Well, that has come to an end. If you were born into a family that your dad went to Harvard, or your mom was a donor, or your brother a professor, admission preferences are still allowed. The court struck down Affirmative Action for almost everyone but white people. Yes, the "legacy student" thing is outrageous. However, the case before the Supreme Court wasn't about legacy students, it was about the consideration of race in school admissions. Harvard and other schools will still be able to consider issues that often affect minorities, such as family poverty, crime-ridden neighborhoods, etc.
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Post by anovice on Jul 1, 2023 18:37:19 GMT
The arrogance the president has in making someone else pay for someone else’s debt is appalling. More overreach by government to just add more government debt. The more these clowns spend the more muni bonds I buy. As far as affirmative action, this is a good step and finally a positive one to help end racism. This country has come a long way in 60 years. It is about time. Affirmative action served a short term purpose that is no longer needed. But, wait until reparations goes into serious discussions. As far as LGBTQXXXX, they already have every right I do. That is enough. Chahta: As far as affirmative action, this is a good step and finally a positive one to help end racism. This country has come a long way in 60 years. It is about time. Affirmative action served a short term purpose that is no longer needed. But, wait until reparations goes into serious discussions. I thought about this listening to Stephen A. Smith's opinion on the Affirmative Action decision. www.youtube.com/watch?v=380lqrjzBmA
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Post by anitya on Jul 1, 2023 20:31:31 GMT
"It seems to me that there used to be programs whereby a teacher, nurse (maybe others) could temporarily relocate to an underserved area. Their time served there would accumulate "X" amount of loan forgiveness. This may not be available anymore."
I am surprised such a program no longer exists. They should add doctors to that list.
It is OK for such programs and other Govt jobs, presumably pay less than private sector, to tack in some student loan forgiveness because the participants are paying off the loans in a different way - socially essential and beneficial work that others are not willing to do presumably. But I find nurturing a notion of periodic general hand-outs / amnesty a slippery slope that erodes the culture of personal responsibility and creates a sense of entitlement / victimhood. So, I do not support Congress forgiving student debt and moving on to the next pet project or crisis - we need them to work on things that will keep us a competitive society too. If education cost is prohibitive, then society / Congress needs to fix the problem for all future students before forgiving any part of past loans.
(My nephews went to Ivy and BS-MD programs and their well off parents made them take loans to get their degrees to teach them personal responsibility. When they graduated and started working, their parents paid off their loans but the kids did not know they would be debt free so fast.)
Re the AA ruling against Harvard, I should read the case to see how nuanced the ruling is to not afford discretion to a private institution. I can see the objection to race based quotas at NC, a government funded college.
P.S.: sometimes I wonder how bad a shape we would be in if not for all the foreign educated immigrants.
Back to focusing on making money and not rely on strangers to act well to fund my social security or medicare!
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Post by roi2020 on Jul 1, 2023 20:57:10 GMT
It's a shame higher education costs have increased dramatically over the past few decades. These cost increases were significantly higher than the rate of inflation.
This is a systemic issue which deserves greater attention. Nevertheless, borrowers should be held responsible for paying their student loans. As others have mentioned, programs to help defray loan costs for borrowers who perform military or public service can be beneficial.
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Post by waffle2 on Jul 1, 2023 21:33:02 GMT
On Higher education costs: I noticed there are 4 type of college education here in California
1. Community college - Very cheap, one can do 2 years here and then transfer to better 4 year college. 2. State university system - Quite cheap, 4 years degree but not research universities. 3. UC system - Outstanding Education at decent prices. 4 years cost 160K with boarding and lodging included. 4. Private Colleges - 320K for 4 years with boarding and lodging included.
A lot of kids from lower income group hardly pay any tution fees with grants and scholarships and waivers.
Now if some one chooses to do Philosophy or literature from say top private college like New York University for 360K for 4 yr. and not get a job, well I would guess it is a free country....
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Post by anovice on Jul 1, 2023 22:08:24 GMT
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Post by catdog on Jul 2, 2023 0:49:21 GMT
Please excuse me but I have one 'war story'. I got out of the Navy in 1979. I took a few classes using the GI Bill. My last class ended yet two more checks arrived from uncle sam. Because I was spending too much time adding to my beer resume and sampling drugs that are now legal, I thought it was a smart idea to cash and spend these checks. It took about four months for them to catch up with me (about the same amount of time it took me to forget about the little debt). We are talking about $800 or $900 dollars, yet I was only making $200 a week. Between an income tax return and behaving myself for a few weeks it was paid back. The letters they sent we quite threatening and I was eager to get my debt paid off.
Catdog
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Post by steadyeddy on Jul 2, 2023 1:20:14 GMT
Please excuse me but I have one 'war story'. I got out of the Navy in 1979. I took a few classes using the GI Bill. My last class ended yet two more checks arrived from uncle sam. Because I was spending too much time adding to my beer resume and sampling drugs that are now legal, I thought it was a smart idea to cash and spend these checks. It took about four months for them to catch up with me (about the same amount of time it took me to forget about the little debt). We are talking about $800 or $900 dollars, yet I was only making $200 a week. Between an income tax return and behaving myself for a few weeks it was paid back. The letters they sent we quite threatening and I was eager to get my debt paid off. Catdog catdog, that is called personal responsibility! I am totally against handouts.
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Post by Chahta on Jul 2, 2023 6:27:39 GMT
If one is to accept the fact that affirmative action has ended then it should be all types, including legacy students. These have nothing to do with "the best and brightest.".
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Post by saratoga on Jul 2, 2023 7:00:37 GMT
On Higher education costs: I noticed there are 4 type of college education here in California 1. Community college - Very cheap, one can do 2 years here and then transfer to better 4 year college. 2. State university system - Quite cheap, 4 years degree but not research universities. 3. UC system - Outstanding Education at decent prices. 4 years cost 160K with boarding and lodging included. 4. Private Colleges - 320K for 4 years with boarding and lodging included. A lot of kids from lower income group hardly pay any tution fees with grants and scholarships and waivers. Now if some one chooses to do Philosophy or literature from say top private college like New York University for 360K for 4 yr. and not get a job, well I would guess it is a free country.... That UC system is a great bargain (relatively). However, an average graduate from Berkeley, for example, takes about 5 years to graduate if they graduate at all. Foreign and Out-of-State students pay a lot more.
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Post by Norbert on Jul 2, 2023 7:14:20 GMT
On Higher education costs: I noticed there are 4 type of college education here in California 1. Community college - Very cheap, one can do 2 years here and then transfer to better 4 year college. 2. State university system - Quite cheap, 4 years degree but not research universities. 3. UC system - Outstanding Education at decent prices. 4 years cost 160K with boarding and lodging included. 4. Private Colleges - 320K for 4 years with boarding and lodging included. A lot of kids from lower income group hardly pay any tution fees with grants and scholarships and waivers. Now if some one chooses to do Philosophy or literature from say top private college like New York University for 360K for 4 yr. and not get a job, well I would guess it is a free country.... That UC system is a great bargain (relatively). However, an average graduate from Berkeley, for example, takes about 5 years to graduate if they graduate at all. Foreign and Out-of-State students pay a lot more.
UC Berkeley undergrad tuition is only about $15K per year for state residents. That's comparable to top UK schools. Private schools like Stanford cost far more.
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Post by saratoga on Jul 2, 2023 8:33:54 GMT
Nobert - UC Berkeley undergrad tuition is only about $15K per year for state residents. That's comparable to top UK schools. Private schools like Stanford cost far more.
Stanford has need-blind admission. They charge the maximum you can bear in many/most cases.
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Post by Norbert on Jul 2, 2023 11:11:32 GMT
Nobert - UC Berkeley undergrad tuition is only about $15K per year for state residents. That's comparable to top UK schools. Private schools like Stanford cost far more. Stanford has need-blind admission. They charge the maximum you can bear in many/most cases. Yes about Stanford, but there are some interesting avenues to explore. My daughter's French partner did graduate studies there. He agreed to teach undergrad math classes; he was paid, plus the usual $50K tuition was fully waived. Dad was pleased.
So, attend Stanford for graduate work and be sure to get hired as a T/A. Then your education is free (though you'll need all of the salary to pay for an apartment in Palo Alto).
Olivier discovered that there are quite a few "legacy students" in his classes. Needless to say, their math competence wasn't particularly high.
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Post by Chahta on Jul 2, 2023 15:52:36 GMT
Nobert - UC Berkeley undergrad tuition is only about $15K per year for state residents. That's comparable to top UK schools. Private schools like Stanford cost far more. Stanford has need-blind admission. They charge the maximum you can bear in many/most cases. Yes about Stanford, but there are some interesting avenues to explore. My daughter's French partner did graduate studies there. He agreed to teach undergrad math classes; he was paid, plus the usual $50K tuition was fully waived. Dad was pleased.
So, attend Stanford for graduate work and be sure to get hired as a T/A. Then your education is free (though you'll need all of the salary to pay for an apartment in Palo Alto).
Olivier discovered that there are quite a few "legacy students" in his classes. Needless to say, their math competence wasn't particularly high.
This is pretty common. That is how my nephew paid for his PhD. program at Davis.
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Post by archer on Jul 2, 2023 17:13:36 GMT
Thoughtful perspective in favor of the affirmative action decision by an African American commentator who often podcasts and writes articles on such matters.
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Post by anovice on Jul 2, 2023 20:04:36 GMT
Thoughtful perspective in favor of the affirmative action decision by an African American commentator who often podcasts and writes articles on such matters. Another thoughtful perspective from Professor Michael Eric Dyson. www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2mEHUk6cBM
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Post by steadyeddy on Jul 2, 2023 20:09:38 GMT
After 26 voters/48 votes, the score is 2:1 in favor of the rulings from the SCOTUS. I was anticipating a fairly divided/even outcome from the poll and am surprised.
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Post by saratoga on Jul 2, 2023 20:51:34 GMT
Some elite schools express regret over their once anti-semitic admission policies and yet defend their anti-Asian policies saying they are different. On the other hand: Helping the disadvantaged is generally a good policy for a society and Affirmative Action was likely necessary to counteract discrimination. I saw enough discrimination in hiring (let alone in admission) to dismiss its function entirely. But perhaps we should move towards implementing it in a more color blind way. The problem is that this is difficult.
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Post by mozart522 on Jul 2, 2023 22:27:42 GMT
"Writing for the majority, Chief Justice John Roberts explained that college admissions programs can consider race merely to allow an applicant to explain how their race influenced their character in a way that would have a concrete effect on the university. But a student “must be treated based on his or her experiences as an individual — not on the basis of race,”
I see some wiggle room on an individual basis in that ruling.
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