Poll on Current Affairs - No political statements please

[steadyeddy]

Folks, a couple of very significant rulings came out within the last 24 hours from SCOTUS. This is simply a poll - not a political forum - on how you feel.

[win1177]

Jun 30, 2023 21:07:33 GMT steadyeddy said:

Folks, a couple of very significant rulings came out within the last 24 hours from SCOTUS. This is simply a poll - not a political forum - on how you feel.

Don’t agree with the rulings!

Doing away with the student loan forgiveness program, I disagree! Maybe reduce the amount forgiven, but don’t totally derail it! It’s sort of frustrating when I paid ALL of my loans off, after university and medial school, to see others get loans forgiven. But I see the amounts of debt many students have, it just seems impossible to ever pay off 200- 300- 400K and have a family, save for retirement, etc. 

Mixed feelings on the dropping of affirmative action for college admissions. As a lower middle class white guy, I had a heck of a struggle getting in medical school. Had to make really good grades, very high MCAT scores, etc. in order to get in. Wound up being accepted to 5 medical schools. Saw others admitted WAY earlier than I was, all with lower MCATs, lower GPA’s, etc. Clearly they were admitted for “racial preferences”. The sad fact was over 1/2 were gone after the first year, just couldn’t “keep up” in spite of special “study halls” only for minorities, individual tutors (again for minorities), etc., etc.

Also have mixed feelings about LGBTQ decisions. Support having a business being able to have the ability to decide who they will work with (or not in this case), but also support LGBTQ “rights”.

Win

[johntaylor]

Two non-political points:

1)   A pale male had to score many points higher on the old LSAT, GMAT, and GRE than minority applicants

2)   Court said if you want to forgive debt, don't try to tack that provision onto the Heroes Act by executive fiat -- go to Congress and do it properly

[steadyeddy]

Jun 30, 2023 22:02:40 GMT win1177 said:

Jun 30, 2023 21:07:33 GMT steadyeddy said:

Folks, a couple of very significant rulings came out within the last 24 hours from SCOTUS. This is simply a poll - not a political forum - on how you feel.

Don’t agree with the rulings!

Doing away with the student loan forgiveness program, I disagree! Maybe reduce the amount forgiven, but don’t totally derail it! It’s sort of frustrating when I paid ALL of my loans off, after university and medial school, to see others get loans forgiven. But I see the amounts of debt many students have, it just seems impossible to ever pay off 200- 300- 400K and have a family, save for retirement, etc. 

Mixed feelings on the dropping of affirmative action for college admissions. As a lower middle class white guy, I had a heck of a struggle getting in medical school. Had to make really good grades, very high MCAT scores, etc. in order to get in. Wound up being accepted to 5 medical schools. Saw others admitted WAY earlier than I was, all with lower MCATs, lower GPA’s, etc. Clearly they were admitted for “racial preferences”. The sad fact was over 1/2 were gone after the first year, just couldn’t “keep up” in spite of special “study halls” only for minorities, individual tutors (again for minorities), etc., etc.

Also have mixed feelings about LGBTQ decisions. Support having a business being able to have the ability to decide who they will work with (or not in this case), but also support LGBTQ “rights”.

Win

I also worry about national debt.. I feel those that borrow have to pay off. That is capitalism. Any partial credit on student loans could then lead (some day) to partial forgiveness of mortgages? credit card debt? where does this stop?

[steadyeddy]

Jun 30, 2023 23:12:19 GMT johntaylor said:

Two non-political points:

1)   A pale male had to score many points higher on the old LSAT, GMAT, and GRE than minority applicants

2)   Court said if you want to forgive debt, don't try to tack that provision onto the Heroes Act by executive fiat -- go to Congress and do it properly

Excellent points johntaylor, this is exactly why the court said what it said.

As minorities, both my kids went to Georgia Tech - my daughter got admission in the first round and my son much later just before the semester started; my son had better SAT scores and grades and my daughter's were a tad less. Again, the woman card was played by the school.

At a megacorp I currently work in, most promotions go to YouKnowWho.. and it has bred a lot of contempt in the white male colleagues.

I think it is time for the pendulum to swing the other way for a while?

[steelpony10]

      I’m with win1177 , pretty much. Same reasoning. Of course I was born and spent many years and still have citizenship in a socialist country.

       steadyeddy, the pendulum always swings back and forth too far. The silent majority doesn’t participate in the nominating process. 
       

[steadyeddy]

Jul 1, 2023 0:08:27 GMT steelpony10 said:

      I’m with win1177 , pretty much. Same reasoning. Of course I was born and spent many years and still have citizenship in a socialist country.

       steadyeddy , the pendulum always swings back and forth too far. The silent majority doesn’t participate in the nominating process. 
       

No arguments from me. That is exactly why I started the poll, to get to know how people on this forum feel about current affairs.

[steelpony10]

steadyeddy ,

      You said no politics. That was really hard for me to constrain myself. Well if you get a feel for peoples investing style and how they post to others you can get a feel for their politics.

       Both win1177 , and I have handicapped adult children so we understand how social programs when properly administered could impact peoples lives in a positive manner right here in the U.S. before overseas adventures. Unfortunately the American people and it seems much of the world has lost their way which of course is an opinion.

        Now you know how I might feel about current affairs.✌️

        Do you think I’m a conservative investor? Ha.Ha.

[gman57]

Education should be free IMHO. Why on earth would you want a less educated population.    ADD: The fact that they exempted military academies from eliminating affirmative action tells you all you need to know.

[steadyeddy]

Jul 1, 2023 1:02:25 GMT steelpony10 said:

steadyeddy ,

      You said no politics. That was really hard for me to constrain myself. Well if you get a feel for peoples investing style and how they post to others you can get a feel for their politics.

       Both win1177 , and I have handicapped adult children so we understand how social programs when properly administered could impact peoples lives in a positive manner right here in the U.S. before overseas adventures. Unfortunately the American people and it seems much of the world has lost their way which of course is an opinion.

        Now you know how I might feel about current affairs.✌️

        Do you think I’m a conservative investor? Ha.Ha.

steelpony10, reading political views "in between the lines" is perhaps unavoidable, yet I am glad we are keeping this thread away from politics and I appreciate it. Thanks for the post.

[anitya]

I am ignorant about Govt student loans. Do they fund just tuition or tuition, board, and incidentals, etc. such that students do not have to take any part time jobs?


This is not the first S Ct. case on Affirmative action. In 2003 in Grutter v. Bollinger S Ct. ruled that race could be a factor if narrowly tailored. I have not looked at the one ruled yesterday.  Does the current ruling modify the 2003 ruling?  If so, how?

[steadyeddy]

Jul 1, 2023 3:37:43 GMT anitya said:

I am ignorant about Govt student loans. Do they fund just tuition or tuition, board, and incidentals, etc. such that students do not have to take any part time jobs?


This is not the first S Ct. case on Affirmative action. In 2003 in Grutter v. Bollinger S Ct. ruled that race could be a factor if narrowly tailored. I have not looked at the one ruled yesterday. How does this ruling affect the 2003 ruling?

This ruling hinges on a Harvard case where race was used as a main factor in determining freshman admissions consistently for over a decade, and the ruling makes that unconstitutional.

[anitya]

Jul 1, 2023 2:33:09 GMT gman57 said:

Education should be free IMHO. Why on earth would you want a less educated population.    ADD: The fact that they exempted military academies from eliminating affirmative action tells you all you need to know.

I have not read the ruling.   I am assuming the current ruling is about eliminating pre-set quotas.  What was their reasoning for exempting military academies?

[racqueteer]

Frankly, there is too much nuance involved for me to yea OR nay about any of these. I can't see these as being handled by anything other than on a case-by-case basis.

[chang]

Jul 1, 2023 2:33:09 GMT gman57 said:

Education should be free IMHO. Why on earth would you want a less educated population.

Nothing is free. I think you mean “taxpayer funded”. And we have public schools everywhere in the country, grades K-12.

As for college and university, a university education isn’t for everyone. And IMO taxpayers should not fund four years to get a college degree in “travel and tourism”, “gender studies”, or “creative writing”. This is wasted money.

[bd1]

insert quote here

The kid who works at HD loading your truck with potting soil probably never had a chance to run up some tuition bill for, say, Art Studies.   Why should he pay taxes to repay that loan?  Why should I?  Plus, the entire argument ignores the fact that there are existing programs for individuals to pay back or get forgiven a large part of their student loans. It is called the income based repayment plan.

[Norbert]

On Affirmative Action at universities, I view it as racism, specifically intended to "help" Black students. Race should play no part in the selection process. Having said that, I can see making challenging individual circumstances (regardless of race) one factor in determining admission.  Some credit is due to kids who successfully overcome adversity of different types; but no one is entitled to special treatment because of the color of skin they were born with.

I recall high school in San Francisco, having just moved there from France. I made a Chinese friend and even joined an all-Chinese Boy Scout troop in Chinatown. Several of the kids were poor, but that didn't stop them from studying hard and even helping their families make ends meet.   There was a tendency for other students to make fun of "overly serious" Chinese kids; no Asian kid ever won my high school's "Most likely to succeed" award.

The average salary of Asians is now higher that that of Whites in the US; that was achieved without "affirmative action".  It was achieved with hard work and a pattern of families valuing the success of their children above almost anything else. 

(Click to enlarge.)

On loan forgiveness, I fail to see why other citizens should bail out a student who made poor financial decisions.  That's unfair and it undermines personal responsibility.  Having said that, I can imagine offering public or military service as a way to reduce or pay off student debt.  But, no "free lunch" please.

That's my 2.

N.

[Chahta]

The arrogance the president has in making someone else pay for someone else’s debt is appalling. More overreach by government to just add more government debt. The more these clowns spend the more muni bonds I buy.

As far as affirmative action, this is a good step and finally a positive one to help end racism. This country has come a long way in 60 years. It is about time. Affirmative action served a short term purpose that is no longer needed. But, wait until reparations goes into serious discussions.

As far as LGBTQXXXX, they already have every right I do. That is enough.

[anovice]

Jun 30, 2023 22:02:40 GMT win1177 said:

Jun 30, 2023 21:07:33 GMT steadyeddy said:

Folks, a couple of very significant rulings came out within the last 24 hours from SCOTUS. This is simply a poll - not a political forum - on how you feel.

Also have mixed feelings about LGBTQ decisions. Support having a business being able to have the ability to decide who they will work with (or not in this case), but also support LGBTQ “rights”.

Win

In my business, I do not want to work with the good folks in interracial marriages. Hopefully the SC will pick up this hypothetical case next.

[steadyeddy]

Jul 1, 2023 7:29:45 GMT Norbert said:

On Affirmative Action at universities, I view it as racism, specifically intended to "help" Black students. Race should play no part in the selection process. Having said that, I can see making challenging individual circumstances (regardless of race) one factor in determining admission.  Some credit is due to kids who successfully overcome adversity of different types; but no one is entitled to special treatment because of the color of skin they were born with.

I recall high school in San Francisco, having just moved there from France. I made a Chinese friend and even joined an all-Chinese Boy Scout troop in Chinatown. Several of the kids were poor, but that didn't stop them from studying hard and even helping their families make ends meet.   There was a tendency for other students to make fun of "overly serious" Chinese kids; no Asian kid ever won my high school's "Most likely to succeed" award.

The average salary of Asians is now higher that that of Whites in the US; that was achieved without "affirmative action".  It was achieved with hard work and a pattern of families valuing the success of their children above almost anything else. 

(Click to enlarge.)

View Attachment

On loan forgiveness, I fail to see why other citizens should bail out a student who made poor financial decisions.  That's unfair and it undermines personal responsibility.  Having said that, I can imagine offering public or military service as a way to reduce or pay off student debt.  But, no "free lunch" please.

That's my 2.

N.

Asians' hard work is evident... look at the CEOs of some of the top corporations... Microsoft, Alphabet, Adobe, IBM, Nvidia, FedEx,.... the list goes on. Asians are dominating (relative to their population size) in top jobs. In fact, the Harvard case points out that Asians (along with Whites) were discriminated against. 

[steadyeddy]

So far, based on poll data from 16 voters, there is a slight tilt toward the opinion of eliminating AA and holding borrowers accountable.

Please keep expressing your opinions...

[anovice]

Jun 30, 2023 23:27:07 GMT steadyeddy said:

Jun 30, 2023 23:12:19 GMT johntaylor said:

Two non-political points:

1)   A pale male had to score many points higher on the old LSAT, GMAT, and GRE than minority applicants

2)   Court said if you want to forgive debt, don't try to tack that provision onto the Heroes Act by executive fiat -- go to Congress and do it properly

Excellent points johntaylor , this is exactly why the court said what it said.

As minorities, both my kids went to Georgia Tech - my daughter got admission in the first round and my son much later just before the semester started; my son had better SAT scores and grades and my daughter's were a tad less. Again, the woman card was played by the school.

At a megacorp I currently work in, most promotions go to YouKnowWho.. and it has bred a lot of contempt in the white male colleagues.

I think it is time for the pendulum to swing the other way for a while?

The pendulum has swung the other way and the Supreme Court has mostly become a proxy for MAGA republicans. That's why their disapproval rating is greater than their approval rating.

[steadyeddy]

Jul 1, 2023 12:36:51 GMT anovice said:

Jun 30, 2023 23:27:07 GMT steadyeddy said:

Excellent points johntaylor , this is exactly why the court said what it said.

As minorities, both my kids went to Georgia Tech - my daughter got admission in the first round and my son much later just before the semester started; my son had better SAT scores and grades and my daughter's were a tad less. Again, the woman card was played by the school.

At a megacorp I currently work in, most promotions go to YouKnowWho.. and it has bred a lot of contempt in the white male colleagues.

I think it is time for the pendulum to swing the other way for a while?

The pendulum has swung the other way and the Supreme Court has mostly become a proxy for MAGA republicans. That's why their disapproval rating is greater than their approval rating.

Disapproval ratings of various positions & entities is very telling across the USA - and definitely outside the scope of this thread - let us stay within the lane of opinions.

[Deleted]

Student Loans: I have to ask why student loans of this magnitude are needed. Why on earth is tuition so expensive? The high brow universities are playing the taxpayers for suckers. If the qualified students would start attending some of the very good state schools this loan activity would attenuate and tuitions would come down and so would endowments.
AA: It's not a race issue. It's culture. Those Asians were discriminated against because their families guided them to success in the test scoring world. That is the current measure of things like it or not. When one group over achieves it messes up the statistics and some just can't live with that.

[richardsok]

Fellas, I'm afraid the OP offers you a false premise. Beats a heart so pure and naive on this forum as to believe college race-preference will NOT henceforth remain in place just as before? Sorry, junior. Be enlightened. The race hustling/woke/virtue-signaling hustle is too lucrative, too deeply embedded in today's ruling-class education culture to be yanked up by the roots.... no matter who's doing the yanking.

I'm reminded of an event a few years back when the former pope in Rome became concerned that Catholic universities in the US and Europe were becoming entirely too secular -- that except for a few architectural symbols built into some of the older buildings, many colleges showed no sign of being Christian at all. So the pope published instructions that henceforth Catholic universities were required to admit more Catholic students, hire & promote more Catholic professors, put more emphasis on Christian thought and morality, etc etc.

Well, within a week or so, the Jesuits at Georgetown Univ. put out a reassuring memo to the alumni that they had at hand all sorts of legalism tools to work around the new directives. Not to worry.

Then a couple years later a new pope was selected and the ignored directive was filed away and forgotten without so much as a sigh. And ol' GU, my alma matter, carries on, as woke and godless and prestigious as ever.

And everyone is happy -- b/c anyone who is NOT happy is nowhere near the campus.

[win1177]

Jul 1, 2023 12:55:32 GMT @axe said:

Student Loans: I have to ask why student loans of this magnitude are needed. Why on earth is tuition so expensive? The high brow universities are playing the taxpayers for suckers. If the qualified students would start attending some of the very good state schools this loan activity would attenuate and tuitions would come down and so would endowments.
AA: It's not a race issue. It's culture. Those Asians were discriminated against because their families guided them to success in the test scoring world. That is the current measure of things like it or not. When one group over achieves it messes up the statistics and some just can't live with that.

Agree about students attending state Universities! I came from a “lower middle class” family, no way in hell I was going to be able to afford a private college (or medical school) based on my mothers income as a high school librarian and what little I could earn working nights/ weekends. So state school was the obvious choice for me! Did extremely well at University of Georgia (honors program) as well as state public medical school (Medical College of GA). Residencies at public universities too (Medical College of GA, University of Texas)! Did well on all national tests for board certification, licensing, etc. Wound up triple board certified. BUT, had to borrow some money for college, even more for Med School. But managed to pay it ALL back to the govt. loan agencies.

Student loans are outrageous now, people borrow 100’s of thousands of dollars to get “Mickey mouse” degrees, for which there is NO WAY they will ever earn the money to pay it off! 

Win

[steadyeddy]

Jul 1, 2023 14:12:44 GMT win1177 said:

Jul 1, 2023 12:55:32 GMT @axe said:

Student Loans: I have to ask why student loans of this magnitude are needed. Why on earth is tuition so expensive? The high brow universities are playing the taxpayers for suckers. If the qualified students would start attending some of the very good state schools this loan activity would attenuate and tuitions would come down and so would endowments.
AA: It's not a race issue. It's culture. Those Asians were discriminated against because their families guided them to success in the test scoring world. That is the current measure of things like it or not. When one group over achieves it messes up the statistics and some just can't live with that.

Agree about students attending state Universities! I came from a “lower middle class” family, no way in hell I was going to be able to afford a private college (or medial school) based on my mothers income as high school librarian and what little Ic outdoor earn working nights/ weekends. So state school was the obvious choice for me! Did extremely well at University of Georgia (honors program) as well as state public medical school (Medical College of GA). Residencies at public universities too! Did well on all national tests for board certification, licensing, etc. Wound up triple board certified. BUT, had to borrow some money for college, even more for Med School. But managed to pay it ALL back to the govt. loan agencies.

Student loans are outrageous now, people borrow 100’s of thousands of dollars to get “Mickey mouse” degrees, for which there is NO WAY they will ever earn the money to pay it off! 

Win

Schools have figured out that loans have been available, and therefore raised the costs for education - which became a feedback loop. And now everyone (schools and student borrowers) want hand-me-downs from the government. Not fair and not typical of capitalistic society.

[gman57]

Jul 1, 2023 14:46:04 GMT steadyeddy said:

Jul 1, 2023 14:12:44 GMT win1177 said:

Schools have figured out that loans have been available, and therefore raised the costs for education - which became a feedback loop. And now everyone (schools and student borrowers) want hand-me-downs from the government. Not fair and not typical of capitalistic society.

Whoa...whoa... 

PPP Loans. 
Bank Bailouts. 
Airline Bailouts. 
Auto Bailouts.
Farm Subsidies. 
Billions in funding to elite schools. 

Apparently the above are fair and typical of a capitalistic society.  I guess helping huge corporations == good, helping individuals ==  bad.

The drawback I see with student loan relief is there also has to be tuition reform at the same time.. Colleges will just raise rates more to milk more money than they do now for the 400 to 1 (made up numbers) administrators to student ratio. All the while professors are on sabbatical and teaching assistants teach the classes.

[chang]

Jun 30, 2023 21:07:33 GMT steadyeddy said:

Folks, a couple of very significant rulings came out within the last 24 hours from SCOTUS. This is simply a poll - not a political forum - on how you feel.

Let's keep to the topic. These are great questions and a lively debate is inevitable, but there's a reason why this forum avoids politics and others have a pigpen. Keep it civil and courteous, please.

[anitya]

Jul 1, 2023 3:37:43 GMT anitya said:

I am ignorant about Govt student loans. Do they fund just tuition or tuition, board, and incidentals, etc. such that students do not have to take any part time jobs?


This is not the first S Ct. case on Affirmative action. In 2003 in Grutter v. Bollinger S Ct. ruled that race could be a factor if narrowly tailored. I have not looked at the one ruled yesterday.  Does the current ruling modify the 2003 ruling?  If so, how?

Based on later posts, I surmise that Govt student loans are given only for tuition.  I took private loans to study and was desperate to do any job and paid the loans off fast - 10% interest rate teaches one the effect of compounding.