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Post by archer on May 15, 2023 1:05:31 GMT
FD1000, I was referring to the high powered hybrids from Mustang's post. Those cars were mostly 3L and up which reduces gas mileage. I'd like to see hybrid that would be more like dropping a 1.8-2.0 into your SIL's car. Just enough ICE to keep the battery charged.
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Post by Chahta on May 16, 2023 2:48:10 GMT
archer and FD1000, Toyota does it right. They have the correct balance electric/IC. The electric motor is just a “helper” for the ICE. The ICE always starts at 15 MPH. More electric and batteries get bigger and the IC engine gets too small. Hiway driving is mostly ICE which needs to move the vehicle and charge the battery. Otherwise it needs to be the GM version plug in like the Volt. The Volt runs on either electric or ICE. Mileage in the 50 MPG range is pretty high for a hybrid with decent performance.
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Post by archer on May 16, 2023 3:32:46 GMT
Chahta, I agree with you on the current paradigm. Toyota's idea was a small gasser that could get a boost from electric and then pay it back when cruising. Aside from the ICE being small and a sipper, the electric also allowed the ICE to run in a more efficient range of torque and speed. I'm just wondering why they can't go bigger with the electric and maybe slightly more powerful if needed with the ICE. They actually did this for the 2003 Prius, so I'm thinking they could take it further.
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Post by Chahta on May 16, 2023 12:56:51 GMT
I think the answer to electric motor size is battery size and charging capacity. Only so much charging can be done by braking and coasting. Otherwise it’s the ICE charging the battery so you are back to using gas to produce electricity, the opposite of the goal of a hybrid.
FD1000 mentioned the Hyundai hybrid has a turbo on the ICE. I hate turbos on grocery getters because of my experience with the Chevy Cruze, which had the turbo as its biggest weakness. Turbos for performance are good on a Mercedes. People buying hybrids aren’t out for max performance. But at 7.5 sec. 0-60 times it is fast enough.
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Post by FD1000 on May 16, 2023 15:21:06 GMT
I think the answer to electric motor size is battery size and charging capacity. Only so much charging can be done by braking and coasting. Otherwise it’s the ICE charging the battery so you are back to using gas to produce electricity, the opposite of the goal of a hybrid. FD1000 mentioned the Hyundai hybrid has a turbo on the ICE. I hate turbos on grocery getters because of my experience with the Chevy Cruze, which had the turbo as its biggest weakness. Turbos for performance are good on a Mercedes. People buying hybrids aren’t out for max performance. But at 7.5 sec. 0-60 times it is fast enough. Just an info Toyota highlander Hybrid: New turbocharged four-cylinder engine replaces previous V6. I never bought a new American or European vehicle in the USA and probably will never buy one. First choice is Toyota, second Honda. In the last 2 years, I started looking at Hyundai/Kia.
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Post by Mustang on May 16, 2023 18:35:31 GMT
I think the answer to electric motor size is battery size and charging capacity. Only so much charging can be done by braking and coasting. Otherwise it’s the ICE charging the battery so you are back to using gas to produce electricity, the opposite of the goal of a hybrid. Opposite goal? It might be the opposite goal of an EV but not a hybrid. Hybrid's goal is reducing dependence on gasoline and they do exactly that. Yes, the ICE charges the battery and that is a good thing if environmentalists want rural America to convert to more fuel efficient vehicles. The ICE extends the range so that the driver doesn't become stranded. The ICE provides heat in the winter the air conditioner in the summer. These things severely limit the range of an EV. Especially in the northern plains where communities are far apart and the temperature easily drops to 20+ below.
While I might buy a hybrid I have no intention of buying an EV until the infrastructure reaches my rural community. I also have no intention of waiting hours for an EV to charge in so that I can get home. I imagine there will be places in the United States that will never be able to completely convert to EVs. When I think about this Alaska comes to mind, then the Montana, the Dakota, etc. Maybe even Nevada, Arizona, etc. where air conditioners would be used.
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Post by archer on May 16, 2023 21:25:56 GMT
Infrastructure will come eventually. I read that some EVs are starting to use heat pumps that work off of wasted battery heat, and these are more efficient than the current AC systems. There is still a lot of work to be done to overcome parts of the country with extreme temperature ranges. For me the main obstacle is something no one talks about. The cost to charge per mile isn't much cheaper than gas. By my calcs a Model 3 Tesla, based on their published figures for miles per KWH, is the equivalent cost of 36 MPG of gas. It may vary some from one location to the other, but it is rare to have a location where electricity is cheap and gas expensive relative to other locations.
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Post by Chahta on May 17, 2023 0:33:01 GMT
I think the answer to electric motor size is battery size and charging capacity. Only so much charging can be done by braking and coasting. Otherwise it’s the ICE charging the battery so you are back to using gas to produce electricity, the opposite of the goal of a hybrid. Opposite goal? It might be the opposite goal of an EV but not a hybrid. Hybrid's goal is reducing dependence on gasoline and they do exactly that. Yes, the ICE charges the battery and that is a good thing if environmentalists want rural America to convert to more fuel efficient vehicles. The ICE extends the range so that the driver doesn't become stranded. The ICE provides heat in the winter the air conditioner in the summer. These things severely limit the range of an EV. Especially in the northern plains where communities are far apart and the temperature easily drops to 20+ below.
While I might buy a hybrid I have no intention of buying an EV until the infrastructure reaches my rural community. I also have no intention of waiting hours for an EV to charge in so that I can get home. I imagine there will be places in the United States that will never be able to completely convert to EVs. When I think about this Alaska comes to mind, then the Montana, the Dakota, etc. Maybe even Nevada, Arizona, etc. where air conditioners would be used.
Yes Mustang, using more gas to charge batteries is the opposite goal of a hybrid. The goal is to use less gas. Not sure what you were reading into my post. The idea of going with a bigger electric motor on a hybrid makes no sense. There must be a way to charge the battery and only so much coasting and braking is available. The only other source is the ICE to charge the battery. So more electric motor makes no sense for a hybrid unless a new method is found to charge the battery. Maybe roof solar panels that are starting to be used. My RAV4 hybrid AC is straight electric. It does not run from the ICE.
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Post by catdog on May 17, 2023 1:21:16 GMT
We have had a Prius Prime Plugin for four years. We love the car but over the last four years the cost of electricity has almost doubled. At the same time gas has also increased quite a bit. I have often wondered if a low budget solar system of say 400 watts could give us that twenty-five to thirty mile charge? There are many low cost solar generators available (think jackery). The charge controller and inverter are built in to it. 200 Watt panels are about $175.
Eighty to ninety percent of our shopping trips are either 12 miles south or 10 miles north. It is not un common for us to shop south in the late morning come home get a recharge in about three hours and go north later in the afternoon. If we don't leave the area it is easy to go a week without using gas. when using gas we get over 50 miles per gallon. As for total usage (educated guess) per year I would say 10,000 miles. We fill the tank (8-9 gallons about every two months. About 50 gallons of gas per year.
Finally anyone looking at a hybrid should not be worring about 0-60 data, especially not a plugin hybrid.
Catdog
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Post by archer on May 17, 2023 3:07:01 GMT
It is true that Hybrids were developed and marketed for fuel economy. Ev's were developed and marketed for... whatever, I'm not sure. Mustang quite a few posts back posted muscle EVs being a selling point and broadening the market. The Tesla Plaid does 0-60 in less than 2 seconds. Tesla's slowest car is around 7 or less. For people who want that kind of power, and want to lose the plug, I'm still wondering if it is possible to add an ICE to an EV to keep it charged along with regenerative braking. There are hybrid sorta muscle cars currently being made with a variety of engine sizes and Electric power. They all charge their batteries in part with their gas engines. If the goal was for power more than fuel economy, and to not need to plug in, the question becomes what is the minimal gas engine to do the job? I think the hybrids are walking a fine line in overcoming the loss of efficiency in converting from gas to electric, but they seem to be doing so with both low and higher powered models. The trick is keeping the ICE running at its most efficient RPM.
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Post by Mustang on May 17, 2023 9:38:54 GMT
Running AC off the battery would pretty much limit the range and a hybrid would need to run the ICE to recharge especially in 90 or 100 degree temperatures.
10 to 12 miles? I've lived in places where that might get you out of your driveway (joking). But ranches out west have ranch roads that long. I have lived in Arizona and South Dakota and driven many times across Utah, Wyoming, etc. I developed a habit of refilling my tank anytime it hit the half full mark. One of my first trips across country I waited until a quarter tank. Didn't think anything of it. Bill boards advertised a gas station ahead. When I got there it was closed with grass growing in the parking lot. I did make it to a gas station but I was really worried because the needle was on E when I got there and there wasn't a sign of civilization. around. Distances between places get pretty far out west.
I drove out to California a few weeks ago. How do EVs and hybrids do in the mountains? I haven't read anything about that. In my wife's Highlander the transmission had to downshift to get up the steep grades. Its was May and we hit ice and snow storms. Semi-trailers off the road. The freezing fog was probably worse. Couldn't see three car lengths ahead. We had to run heat, lights and flashers in the daytime and hope no one ran over us from behind. In situations like this I would be very glad that there is an ICE charging the battery. Especially if we were the ones to slide off the side of the road.
I've wondered about solar panels. Can you scrap ice and snow off of them? Do you just pull over and wait when they are iced over in a snow storm?
There are a lot of places where EVs and hybrids will be perfect especially if you don't go more than 10 miles from home. But that's not everywhere.
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Post by Chahta on May 17, 2023 13:29:08 GMT
It is true that Hybrids were developed and marketed for fuel economy. Ev's were developed and marketed for... whatever, I'm not sure. Mustang quite a few posts back posted muscle EVs being a selling point and broadening the market. The Tesla Plaid does 0-60 in less than 2 seconds. Tesla's slowest car is around 7 or less. For people who want that kind of power, and want to lose the plug, I'm still wondering if it is possible to add an ICE to an EV to keep it charged along with regenerative braking. There are hybrid sorta muscle cars currently being made with a variety of engine sizes and Electric power. They all charge their batteries in part with their gas engines. If the goal was for power more than fuel economy, and to not need to plug in, the question becomes what is the minimal gas engine to do the job? I think the hybrids are walking a fine line in overcoming the loss of efficiency in converting from gas to electric, but they seem to be doing so with both low and higher powered models. The trick is keeping the ICE running at its most efficient RPM. That is exactly a hybrid-ICE to charge with battery charging by braking. Otherwise, as I mentioned earlier, it would be a Volt with only a 35 mile EV range. A plug in with an ICE as a back up. The entire concept of an EV is screwed by adding an ICE. Why add the weight? You are admitting the EV is too weak on its own. Tesla has it down perfectly. They know their range and build charging within that range. Obviously it doesn’t work out in BF Egypt. But it works in populated areas just fine. The only “better” answer is the plug-in hybrid. More battery charge, bigger batteries, for local trips. That is your answer to “more” electric motor. But at some point the car will revert back to a standard hybrid and run on mostly ICE. That would be on longer trips.
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