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Post by FD1000 on May 9, 2023 21:20:38 GMT
We just came back from one week in Israel and 2 weeks in Netherlands. For decades now Israeli drivers make reasonable choices of how to buy great vehicles for a specific amount of money. For 2022, the highest % came from Hyundai at close to 16%, Kia+Toyota=about 14% each, and the rest way behind. Why?Because 1/3 of all vehicle are EV or Hybrid...10% are EV about 23% are hybrid. Toyota is the best in the world, especially in hybrid, but a bit expensive, Hyundai-Kia have good brands, cheaper with a lot of great features. All 3 lead in Hybrid. In EV: The best-selling EV in Israel is Chinese carmaker Geely's Geometry C, which has captured 25% of the EV market in Israel. Tesla is in second place with a 17.1% market share of new deliveries and BYD's ATTO3 is in third place with a 13.4% market share. I also noticed that SUV are a lot more popular. In Netherlands I have seen similar characteristics. More hybrids, more SUV than Israel, but more European vehicles which IMO can't compete with Japanese and Korean for best for the price. The only good vehicles are German for a lot more money but not great reliability. Several years ago I rented a Corolla hybrid and made 60 MPG. This time I rented Toyota Yaris and make 80 MPG. Hybrid is the way to go. I'm looking for Hybrid in the US for the above 3 and it's very difficult to get one for the lower-mid level...just ridiculous. www.oica.net/wp-content/uploads/I-via-Monthly-Review-December-2022.pdfen.globes.co.il/en/article-10-of-new-cars-sold-in-israel-in-2022-were-evs-1001434022 |
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Post by catdog on May 9, 2023 22:30:52 GMT
We bought a prius in 2009. Ran it for 9 years and gave it to granddaughter. Then bout a 2018 prius prime plug-in hybrid. Both great cars. Second prius was $4000 less than the first one.
Catdog
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Post by Mustang on May 9, 2023 23:45:45 GMT
I was crossing Nevada a couple of weeks ago. I pulled off for gas and saw and EV plugged in its driver waiting. I was in and out and he was waiting. Coming back I hit a snow/ice storm in Wyoming. We crawled up the mountain trying to stay on the road. I remembered that EV. I wonder how it does in mountains during freezing weather and snow storms? I know mileage is much shorter if the heater is running but I don't know a couple of hours at maybe 40 mph affects range.
If you live in a city EV might work great but I'm just not sure I'd want one in the desert or high plains. Right now there isn't enough information to know.
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Post by FD1000 on May 10, 2023 0:26:19 GMT
I was crossing Nevada a couple of weeks ago. I pulled off for gas and saw and EV plugged in its driver waiting. I was in and out and he was waiting. Coming back I hit a snow/ice storm in Wyoming. We crawled up the mountain trying to stay on the road. I remembered that EV. I wonder how it does in mountains during freezing weather and snow storms? I know mileage is much shorter if the heater is running but I don't know a couple of hours at maybe 40 mph affects range. If you live in a city EV might work great but I'm just not sure I'd want one in the desert or high plains. Right now there isn't enough information to know. This thread is mainly about hybrid. When things get normal, hybrid is worth it, especially from Toyota. At about 3k more, you get it back within 3-4 years. No need for any special infrastructure. EV are too expensive, it takes 15-25 years to get your money back if you compare equal vehicles, infrastructure isn't ready yet. All equal to NOT YET. |
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Post by win1177 on May 10, 2023 2:25:29 GMT
I agree, hybrids are GREAT! I bought a 2011 Hybrid Lincoln MKZ from my father in laws estate, after he passed away. Bought it in 2014, had low mileage, and was comfortable to drive. Gets great gas mileage, probably averaging around 30-34 miles per gallon with mix of city/ highway miles. Still runs great, even in 2023!
Batteries appear to be good, so I’m going to keep driving it as long as possible. I know eventually I’ll need to replace it, but it’s 12 years old, still going strong with about 140K miles.
I will probably look at replacing it with a hybrid. Here in SC, not as many recharging stations, so won’t look at EV (yet).
Win
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Post by Fearchar on May 10, 2023 13:16:32 GMT
At work, we have free charging stations.
I do not know how common that is.
Being I am at large nuclear power station, we are very supportive of electrification efforts.
Was chatting with a coworker that has owned an electric vehicle for about 6 years and he told me he has yet to pay for electricity. He has not even used his home charger.
He was complaining about the hybrids taking up spaces since they can recharge so fast. He commutes about 30 miles each way.
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Post by racqueteer on May 10, 2023 14:08:44 GMT
Just off the top of my head, I'm not sure the relevant figure should be mpg of gasoline. Probably more useful would be dollars per mile for real comparisons? I'm pretty sure Hybrids and EVs come off well in that comparison, but I can't say that those figures have come to my attention. I agree, however, that Hybrid is the logical choice at present.
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Post by chang on May 10, 2023 14:32:21 GMT
What I like about my hybrids: I leave and return into the garage on electric, so there are no fumes. We have a home gym in the garage, and I like the clean air.
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Post by newtecher on May 10, 2023 15:07:55 GMT
The gas savings really depend on how much you're driving and the local car and gas prices. A typical hybrid will reduce gas consumption by about a third (improving from 33 to 50 mpg for a sedan or 26 to 40 mpg for SUV). Since I drive about 6k miles per year, my gas spending is about $800 for a regular SUV versus $540 for a hybrid, or $260 in savings. It would take me 10+ years to pay off at least 3k extra I would have to pay to get a hybrid.
The market price (as opposed to MSRP) premium is also high for hybrids right now. While gas cars can often be bought at MSRP or below, you will almost always have to pay a few thousand more than MSRP for a hybrid, either in straight market adjustment markup or bullshit options (like etched VIN).
I am all for new and green technology but it really depends.
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Post by racqueteer on May 10, 2023 15:40:25 GMT
The gas savings really depend on how much you're driving and the local car and gas prices. A typical hybrid will reduce gas consumption by about a third (improving from 33 to 50 mpg for a sedan or 26 to 40 mpg for SUV). Since I drive about 6k miles per year, my gas spending is about $800 for a regular SUV versus $540 for a hybrid, or $260 in savings. It would take me 10+ years to pay off at least 3k extra I would have to pay to get a hybrid. The market price (as opposed to MSRP) premium is also high for hybrids right now. While gas cars can often be bought at MSRP or below, you will almost always have to pay a few thousand more than MSRP for a hybrid, either in straight market adjustment markup or bullshit options (like etched VIN). I am all for new and green technology but it really depends. That's probably a low mileage figure for many. Realistically, we'd probably be looking at multiples of that mileage figure for someone with a little commute. So 3-5 years might be common for a payback period. A heavy commuter could certainly benefit. Someone infrequently puttering around the neighborhood; not so much. Thank you; that's the type of information which actually informs a decision! |
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Post by retiredat48 on May 10, 2023 15:43:06 GMT
I read recently where Toyota is making a huge bet that the HYBRID is the preferred vehicle for the next decade, and where their emphasis will be.
R48
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Post by Chahta on May 10, 2023 15:53:32 GMT
The gas savings really depend on how much you're driving and the local car and gas prices. A typical hybrid will reduce gas consumption by about a third (improving from 33 to 50 mpg for a sedan or 26 to 40 mpg for SUV). Since I drive about 6k miles per year, my gas spending is about $800 for a regular SUV versus $540 for a hybrid, or $260 in savings. It would take me 10+ years to pay off at least 3k extra I would have to pay to get a hybrid. The market price (as opposed to MSRP) premium is also high for hybrids right now. While gas cars can often be bought at MSRP or below, you will almost always have to pay a few thousand more than MSRP for a hybrid, either in straight market adjustment markup or bullshit options (like etched VIN). I am all for new and green technology but it really depends. Just bought a Toyota RAV4 hybrid. The price was $2k over invoice. You get on a waiting list and either accept or pass each time one is presented. Yes I had to accept a couple of "bullshit" options not wanted. The mileage should save about 50-60% of the fuel used for the SUV replaced. Possibly more if the miles are mostly in town. At todays price of gas I am projecting about $125/month saved. However if the battery must be replaced in 8-10 years it will most likely be a wash. Gas saved = replacement cost of new battery. The variables will be how high gas prices go and how low replacement batteries go or how long they last. One would ask why pay extra for a hybrid without any payback? No one knows what this Crazy-Ass government will come up with for killing petroleum. I do not see it going away anytime soon but they DGAF what happens to us peons. The rest is BS. With a premium, extra cost for hybrid and replacing batteries for a long-term hold, there is no payback unless gas prices go berserk. EDIT: one positive is the insurance premium went down for this new vehicle. All the safety equipment (like lane change warnings) help to reduce premiums. |
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Post by richardsok on May 10, 2023 17:15:24 GMT
I've read that a hybrid batt should last about 100,000 miles. Very good, but I'd wonder how much of its max potential has eroded by, say, 50,000? It doesn't seem likely your typical battery will be perfectly useful at 98k and then suddenly die 2k later.
I expect my Subaru's IC performance at 50k or 75k will be about what it was new. Hybrid range? Doubtful.
I would also like to guess what replacement batteries+ installation will cost five years from now.
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Post by retiredat48 on May 10, 2023 21:11:32 GMT
Have a sister who owns a 9 y/o hybrid, who states she was quoted from $8500--$10,000 to replace the battery at year 10.
R48
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Post by FD1000 on May 10, 2023 22:08:01 GMT
Have a sister who owns a 9 y/o hybrid, who states she was quoted from $8500--$10,000 to replace the battery at year 10. R48 Almost certain it wasn't a Toyota. =========== 1) Hybrid battery warranty: Toyota 10 years / 150 miles. Hyundai 10 years / 100K miles. 2) There are many Toyota hybrids and it's very common to use the battery for 150-200K. 3) For smaller vehicle (RAV4, Camry, Tucson) Hybrid increases the price by about $5K. It used to be just $2-3K for Toyota. $5K is too high. 4) For bigger vehicles, with 3 rows (Toyota highlander, Kia Sorento) Hybrid increases the price by only about $1-2K. 5) Price: Toyota is about 10-15% higher + you get fewer features. 6) Plug in increases the price by about another 5K. Too high again. My example: about a year ago, my wife totaled the Camry. After we drove several options we love the Hyundai Tuscon. We bought the SEL at $34K drive-out including a 7% tax. If we wanted a hybrid, they only had the top model at $8K more. For the lower option, you got to wait months, but still about $5K more. The SEL = package has everything you want. I want to replace my minivan. Prices below are MSRP Toyota Sienna, which only comes as a hybrid. Bottom model LE = $39K Toyota Highlander: Gas LE $42K, hybrid $44K Kia Sorento(smaller 3 row SUV) and only looking at 6 cyl = Gas/Hybrid EX around 37-8K. MPG 25 vs 37-8. In my case, mostly in the city 20 vs 35. That's about $700 savings per year for 10K miles, or $400 per 7-8K miles. The Sorento have more features than the Toyota. Below are the features for the lowest model for 6 cyl or hybrid. Attachments:
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Post by Chahta on May 10, 2023 22:27:15 GMT
Have a sister who owns a 9 y/o hybrid, who states she was quoted from $8500--$10,000 to replace the battery at year 10. R48 Exactly. It’s most likely a trade off of gas mileage for a battery. I see no payback for the extra hybrid cost. But like I said, if gas goes berserk or battery lasts 200k miles then things get better. But we do have a 150k mile battery warranty. |
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Post by fritzo489 on May 10, 2023 23:39:34 GMT
FD1000, catdog, Mustang, win1177, Fearchar, racqueteer, chang, newtecher, retiredat48, Chahta, richardsok, Good evening : A friend just informed me his hybrid is in need of a pump that cools his battery. He visited a dealership & was informed that they don't stock them . They said they would inquire elsewhere to see if its possible (safe) to drive without hurting the battery. Any suggestion from this group of knowledgeable investor ? I believe he drives a Dodge. Thanks, fritzo489
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Post by archer on May 12, 2023 3:54:12 GMT
I've read that a hybrid batt should last about 100,000 miles. Very good, but I'd wonder how much of its max potential has eroded by, say, 50,000? It doesn't seem likely your typical battery will be perfectly useful at 98k and then suddenly die 2k later. I expect my Subaru's IC performance at 50k or 75k will be about what it was new. Hybrid range? Doubtful. I would also like to guess what replacement batteries+ installation will cost five years from now. I bought a new Prius in 2007. The hybrid battery was noticeably lacking starting around 200K. The price to replace was around $3K. I drove the car another 30K and sold it for $2500 in 2017. Batteries have a life span based more on time than mileage. The 2007 Prius had Ni-cads, which are not as good as the Li-ion batteries that most are using now. My ex bought a 2008 Prius and her battery needed to be replaced about the same time as mine, but she only had 70K on hers. Even without the hybrid battery both continued to get better than 40 MPG. Toyota makes the most reliable cars overall, and Honda the most durable engines, especially their larger ones. Now for economy sake many cars are running 1.4L turbos, which is really not a good for durability in a 3000+ lb car. THe 2003 Prius is much improved in styling and performance. 60% more HP than last years, and slightly better MPG as well. My only qualm with it and pretty much all new cars is the interiors are really ugly IMO. I don't like the oversize screens, and would be happier if they got rid of the screens all together. I think Tesla started a minimalist design aesthetic that influenced other manufacturers. I'm seeing more and more plastic and other hard surfaces in the newer interiors. I guess I'm just stuck in the 1940s. |
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Post by richardsok on May 12, 2023 12:05:29 GMT
Interesting. A $3000 replacement after 200k is very reasonable. After 70k, well, marginal acceptability, I guess. Either way no horror story especially if, as you say, you still get great mileage without the batt. Agree with everything you write about Toyotas, Hondas, turbo, interior design and big screens .... but man doth not live on mileage alone, archie. If I'm approaching some matron tooling along at 55 en route to her mah-jong group, I want to be able to blast past her in true obnoxious style. In my turbo-free world, that calls for IC displacement.
But, hey -- you say the new Prius gets 60% more HP? Maybe you meant 6%? Otherwise you're talking a real little pocket rocket. Enjoy.
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Post by archer on May 12, 2023 13:38:58 GMT
richardsok , I wouldn't call it a pocket rocket, but more like a normal car. The old ones had ~120 HP and the new Prius Prime has 220. Still not a hot rod for a 3000lb car. The Prime is a plug in, with a larger battery. The regular Prius now has only 194HP which is still a big improvement. One of many sources When I was looking into replacing my battery, I read on the Prius forum I often visited, that at some point of battery degradation the car will not go into reverse. I don't remember the details, but, it wasn't just one person's anecdotal experience. So, it isn't just a matter of continuing to drive with moderately decreased MPG.
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Post by FD1000 on May 13, 2023 23:36:20 GMT
By far the best hybrid for the money is Camry LE. The higher level SE/XLE MPG is more expensive with lower MPG at 44/47.MSRP Camry LE=28-29K. Smaller Prius 27+K. Corolla LE Hybrid only 23K MPG: Camry LE = 51/53. Prius 56/57 is negligible. Corolla 53/46(I don't get the 46) 0 to 60. Camry=This site( link) says 5.2 sec, probably in the low 6. Prius 7.1 still very good. Corolla=8 HP: Camry 208. Prius=194 Length: Camry 192-3 inches (great). Prius=181=small. Corolla=182.5 Basically Camry Hybrid LE price is excellent, it's fast, reliable, nice size, and does most things well. Unfortunately when we tested the Camry LE hybrid none of the seats (front+back) were comfortable for us. Most Toyotas are not comfortable for us, otherwise, I would only buy Toyota. For all the guys who look for acceleration, just buy a used motorcycle under $10K. For the other 95% of the time who cares.
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Post by johntaylor on May 14, 2023 13:25:45 GMT
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Post by richardsok on May 14, 2023 13:52:44 GMT
Ver-r-r-y sexy. If I was a divorced guy in my forties and on the prowl, it would be just what I'd want. |
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Post by richardsok on May 14, 2023 14:47:47 GMT
A couple of years back I happened to lease a Camry for a couple of days. Very impressive. The only reason I didn't buy one is, like most cars, the driver's line of sight is quite low to the ground. After almost 20 years in my ancient CR-V I'd gotten used to being higher up. Easier to enter/exit the car and better vision all around. When it came time to replace, the RAV-4 was a bit too SUV-y for me and I'd grown tired on Hondas after two decades, so I settled on a compromise crossover, my Crosstrek Sport with the bigger motor -- which puts me just a bit higher than an ordinary car. It's enough.
Still can't believe I actually shelled out $30k for a car, though.
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Post by fritzo489 on May 14, 2023 16:15:56 GMT
richardsok, I couldn't agree with you more . I drive a 2005 Camry with 270K. Tried out a 2023 & fell into the drivers seat. Way to low of a ride for me. I'll checkout the Crosstrek Sport. Camry does offer different wheel size & I'm wondering what this would accomplish for seat height ? Thanks, fritzo489
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Post by richardsok on May 14, 2023 16:24:40 GMT
richardsok , I couldn't agree with you more . I drive a 2005 Camry with 270K. Tried out a 2023 & fell into the drivers seat. Way to low of a ride for me. I'll checkout the Crosstrek Sport. Camry does offer different wheel size & I'm wondering what this would accomplish for seat height ? Thanks, fritzo489 If you do, fritz, be sure to compare the Crosstrek's bigger 2.5l engine. With the standard 2.0l, it goes 0-60 in about a half hour. |
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Post by roi2020 on May 14, 2023 17:39:27 GMT
The Karma GS-6 is a very nice-looking car.
According to Edmunds, the Karma GS-6 offers more electric range from its plug-in hybrid powertrain than any other plug-in car.
There is ample horsepower and torque as well.
www.edmunds.com/karma/gs-6/ |
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Post by Mustang on May 14, 2023 17:49:20 GMT
If I'm approaching some matron tooling along at 55 en route to her mah-jong group, I want to be able to blast past her in true obnoxious style. In my turbo-free world, that calls for IC displacement. I've been driving muscle cars my entire life. It used to be big blocks only but I'm now running a supercharger and I really like it. I will most likely get my wife a hybrid when the time comes but its going to be hard for me to give up IC power. I think the auto companies are using the right tactic. Promoting the muscle EVs will get acceptance faster than promoting fuel efficiency.
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Post by archer on May 14, 2023 21:25:00 GMT
If I'm approaching some matron tooling along at 55 en route to her mah-jong group, I want to be able to blast past her in true obnoxious style. In my turbo-free world, that calls for IC displacement. I've been driving muscle cars my entire life. It used to be big blocks only but I'm now running a supercharger and I really like it. I will most likely get my wife a hybrid when the time comes but its going to be hard for me to give up IC power. I think the auto companies are using the right tactic. Promoting the muscle EVs will get acceptance faster than promoting fuel efficiency.
It appears that the difference between high Hp hybrids and the average ones is that they have larger ICEs. I'd like to see more power coming from the electric motors and smaller but reliable (not overly stressed) ICEs for better economy, but maybe it isn't really possible. Larger electric motors need larger batteries to prevent too rapid of a discharge, which then adds more weight to the car, and they have to also make room for everything. I guess it is a balancing act, but from my uneducated view, it seems they should be able to approach it more like an EV with an ICE added, rather than an gas powered car with motors added. 30 HP from gas would be sufficient to keep the batteries charged, so a sturdy NA 2L should provide that and still last many miles. |
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Post by FD1000 on May 14, 2023 23:46:13 GMT
The Karma GS-6 is a very nice-looking car.
According to Edmunds, the Karma GS-6 offers more electric range from its plug-in hybrid powertrain than any other plug-in car.
There is ample horsepower and torque as well.
www.edmunds.com/karma/gs-6/ It has just a tiny, little problem...the price is ridiculous...MSRP=$96K. My SIL bought 2 motors Tesla Y, 0-60 about 4 second, excellent driving, very quiet and stable. Within 5 minutes I got used to driving it, no need to use the mirrors because the screen shows you everything, you never use the brake because when you take your foot of the acceleration, it stops very quickly. All the gadgets and electronics are very intuitive. First time in my life I was excited about a vehicle...and all for under $60K. These vehicles will have longer range and cheaper. MY SIL took it on vacation and needed to charge. No problem, Tesla set up the trip and where to charge, after 250 miles he stopped and charged another 200 miles within 20 minutes using Tesla supercharge. I would not buy EV for years to come, too expensive and not enough infrastructure. In many other smaller countries, the range isn't a problem. ========== archer; "I'd like to see more power coming from the electric motors" FD: looks to me that 0 to 60 in 4 seconds is very fast. |
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