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Post by richardsok on Nov 25, 2023 23:59:03 GMT
“These Truths: a history of the United States” by Jill Lepore. An excellent read. Care to add a few comments why you liked it?
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Post by Norbert on Nov 26, 2023 3:44:20 GMT
Have not read "These Truths", but one commentator writes this:
"I also agree with the author's major interpretative decision: to make slavery, sexism, xenophobia, and ethnic/racial hostility an important part of the central narrative of our history."
It sounds like the book might reflect the "woke" narrative popular at schools like Harvard, where Jill Lepore is employed.
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Post by howaya on Nov 26, 2023 13:17:29 GMT
Norbert You haven't read "These Truths" yet have summarily labeled it after relying on one commentator. Such quick and dismissive judgement may show more about you than the work in question!
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Post by Norbert on Nov 26, 2023 20:55:00 GMT
Norbert You haven't read "These Truths" yet have summarily labeled it after relying on one commentator. Such quick and dismissive judgement may show more about you than the work in question! Look, I infused my statement with doubt: "It sounds like ..." Obviously I never carried out a in-depth analysis, and clearly stated that. However, though I just referenced one comment, I read many. Also downloaded a Kindle excerpt. Indeed, the author infuses everything with the racism narrative. Slavery existed during the early days of American history; so, US success was achieved "on the backs of slavery". Based on this silliness, I don't intend to buy the book. But, please! Feel free to read it yourself. Based on my 15 minute look, it does seem that the comment I cited was accurate. Could be wrong, of course.
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Post by bigseal on Nov 26, 2023 23:58:47 GMT
Norbert You haven't read "These Truths" yet have summarily labeled it after relying on one commentator. Such quick and dismissive judgement may show more about you than the work in question! Totally agree. Not sure why someone would comment about a book they haven’t read.
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Post by bigseal on Nov 27, 2023 0:05:40 GMT
“These Truths: a history of the United States” by Jill Lepore. An excellent read. Care to add a few comments why you liked it? I tend to read a lot biographies, history, and economics books. Certain writing styles are more attractive to me than others, and I like Jill Lepore’s. The book doesn’t get bogged down in any particular period or topic but flows very nicely. The book is full of interesting facts that aren’t generally known. If you like history, I think you’d enjoy reading this book.
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Post by bigseal on Nov 27, 2023 0:08:32 GMT
Norbert You haven't read "These Truths" yet have summarily labeled it after relying on one commentator. Such quick and dismissive judgement may show more about you than the work in question! Look, I infused my statement with doubt: "It sounds like ..." Obviously I never carried out a in-depth analysis, and clearly stated that. However, though I just referenced one comment, I read many. Also downloaded a Kindle excerpt. Indeed, the author infuses everything with the racism narrative. Slavery existed during the early days of American history; so, US success was achieved "on the backs of slavery". Based on this silliness, I don't intend to buy the book. But, please! Feel free to read it yourself. Based on my 15 minute look, it does seem that the comment I cited was accurate. Could be wrong, of course. Thank you for letting us know that we are “free to read” the book. Would have never known if you hadn’t given permission.
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Post by Norbert on Nov 27, 2023 6:47:23 GMT
Norbert You haven't read "These Truths" yet have summarily labeled it after relying on one commentator. Such quick and dismissive judgement may show more about you than the work in question! Totally agree. Not sure why someone would comment about a book they haven’t read. Well, I'm always looking for good new books to read. There's not enough time to read everything, so I have to pick and choose. I read short passages and check critical reviews to decide whether to dive in, or not. Happily, Amazon offers free Kindle excerpts for downloading. Based on your comments, I decided to read a few chapters. That gave me a sense for the professor's style. I posted my impression and a reader's comment above, clearly stating that I hadn't read the entire book. Instead of expressing faux indignation, why don't you address my point? Please explain why my impressions are wrong. My impression is that the good professor is reframing US history from the perspective of certain popular left-wing themes. It's just my reaction to four chapters of a book, not a personal attack. There's no reason to get defensive.
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Post by Chahta on Nov 27, 2023 11:53:49 GMT
Why is it becoming common that a person’s opinion doesn’t count, if you disagree? Then it turns into a personal attack. This is getting ridiculous all thru life. Is it really that hard to read it and move on?
“These Truths” is only one lady’s opinion.
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Post by Capital on Nov 27, 2023 12:36:54 GMT
Why is it becoming common that a person’s opinion doesn’t count, if you disagree? Then it turns into a personal attack. This is getting ridiculous all thru life. Is it really that hard to read it and move on? “These Truths” are one lady’s opinion. Chahta , all this rudeness seemed to have started in Web chat rooms such as this where there are no faces. I now see it spilling over into the real world in some places. Too many people find that they must always be right - must always be perfect. They can not move on until everyone else holds these same beliefs. We live in the Era of the Ego. Now I invite everyone that reads this to just move on. You have no need to agree with me.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2023 12:52:14 GMT
Why is it becoming common that a person’s opinion doesn’t count, if you disagree? Then it turns into a personal attack. This is getting ridiculous all thru life. Is it really that hard to read it and move on? “These Truths” is only one lady’s opinion. Exactly. A comment regarding the material in a book immediately became a personal affront to some. I read reviews and research the author when deciding to invest my time in a book. It seems like a natural process. I'm sure Norbert's critics do the same.
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Post by richardsok on Nov 27, 2023 13:57:06 GMT
Norbert: a useful place to visit is goodreads.com when trying to get a feel for a new book. It's frequented by some highly literate and sophisticated readers. Find the "Reader Reviews" link for any book title and there is almost always an abundance of thoughtful responses. When a book is overwhelmingly popular, I generally like to find the "One Star" or "Two Star" minority who panned such a well-received work and get their take. I did just that with "These Truths" and gathered various reasons why the minority disliked the history, but, whatever its flaws, it didn't seem to be marred by extreme wokefulness.
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Post by Norbert on Nov 27, 2023 14:45:22 GMT
Norbert: a useful place to visit is goodreads.com when trying to get a feel for a new book. It's frequented by some highly literate and sophisticated readers. Find the "Reader Reviews" link for any book title and there is almost always an abundance of thoughtful responses. When a book is overwhelmingly popular, I generally like to find the "One Star" or "Two Star" minority who panned such a well-received work and get their take. I did just that with "These Truths" and gathered various reasons why the minority disliked the history, but, whatever its flaws, it didn't seem to be marred by extreme wokefulness. Just signed up at Goodreads. Thanks for the idea. Immediately found several reviews of "These Truths" that view Professor Lepore critically because of her leftish negative spin on much of US history. Of course, lots of folks love it. Lots of folks loved "Scream 6" too, so I'm not sure if Popularity = Quality. ----- Am reading an excellent book by British journalist Nick Cohen, "What's Left". Cohen is also a person who comes from the Left, but one who doesn't hesitate to be critical of his own tribe. Great sense of humor, witty style. I will NOT be offended if someone doesn't like Nick Cohen. Just be clear that I'm always right. Once I thought I was wrong, but that was a mistake. Everything will be easier if you just agree with me. "Be reasonable. See it my way." N.
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Post by rhythmmethod on Nov 27, 2023 14:49:48 GMT
We have become such an ultra-binary community/country/world that there is a tendency to become offended at even a whiff of a trigger that sets us off. This can be perceived as too much "wokeness" (I get it; as a liberal, I am frequently face-palmed at comments by my left-leaning friends). At the same time, people became "woke" because some were sleeping in reality for too long. There is also a tendency for people with different perspectives to be defined by their opinions instead of the totality of the person. Kudos to richardsok for weighing in on his expertise in literature. Kudos to Norbert for adjusting the tone and tenor of his original post. chang has done an admirable job of creating a community. I applaud you two for respecting it. I've been constantly touring since summer but have a little more time to annoy people here. Take care, and have a safe holiday season.
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Post by racqueteer on Nov 27, 2023 15:18:09 GMT
I've been constantly touring since summer but have a little more time to annoy people here. Given the ease with which so many become so easily annoyed, I can only say that you must not be trying hard enough!
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Post by johntaylor on Nov 27, 2023 15:36:07 GMT
Guy I hike with contends that intellectuals historically have not liked the ordinary people they use for purposes of argument-building.
He notes that JS Mill felt intellectuals had to guide the slumbering masses.
Godwin and Condorcet expressed contempt for the masses. Fabian GB Shaw called the working class "detestable." Marx felt that the working class was revolutionary or "nothing."
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Post by racqueteer on Nov 27, 2023 16:13:20 GMT
I recognize that others may disagree, but my experience is that man, as an organism, embraces a number of flaws and has done so throughout his existence. We are fundamentally tribal. We seek strength to protect us; making the majority both willing followers and intolerant of those who are "not us". The strong have tended to exploit the weak throughout our history. Our treatment of the environment, flora and fauna is further indication of this disregard for 'others'. Frankly, it's a wonder that some few individuals seem to be able to rise above their baser nature. One can always find examples of these flaws in any 'tribe' with little difficulty.
Sorry, not really germane to the general topic here; so I'll stop.
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Post by Norbert on Nov 28, 2023 8:07:00 GMT
We have become such an ultra-binary community/country/world that there is a tendency to become offended at even a whiff of a trigger that sets us off. This can be perceived as too much "wokeness" (I get it; as a liberal, I am frequently face-palmed at comments by my left-leaning friends). At the same time, people became "woke" because some were sleeping in reality for too long. There is also a tendency for people with different perspectives to be defined by their opinions instead of the totality of the person. Kudos to richardsok for weighing in on his expertise in literature. Kudos to Norbert for adjusting the tone and tenor of his original post. chang has done an admirable job of creating a community. I applaud you two for respecting it. I've been constantly touring since summer but have a little more time to annoy people here. Take care, and have a safe holiday season. I do think social developments regarding "Woke" philosophy are worth a deeper look. Liberals like you and I believe in equal opportunity for all, individualism, free speech, tolerance for alternative lifestyles, and view totalitarianism of the Left and Right with alarm. We likely both appreciate Martin Luther King for his belief that the color of our skin shouldn't really matter. The Woke see all this very differently. Identity politics and intersectionality dominate: we are a product of our racial + sexual/gender + national origin + class makeup. It's Marxism on steroids; we're not just capitalists and workers, but belong to a multitude of other categories. As for individualism, you can forget about it. This has led to concepts like "Critical Race Theory", which teach white guilt and unconscious bias. As ridiculous as it sounds, this stuff dominates university and media organizations. It's intellectually appealing, just like Marxism. Ominously, the Woke typically loath Western society and particularly places like the US and Israel. They're sympathetic to Hamas and the Palestinians; never mind that these groups will hang you if you're gay or insult Mohammed. In other words, the Woke will embrace fascism as long as it involves non-white, non-Western, non-Jewish identity groups. So, I disagree that the problem is that we've become "binary". The problem is that an extreme, post-Marxist ideology has taken root around us. It's often confused with "Liberalism", but it's actually the opposite. ----- There! End of rant. My girlfriend is returning from the US on Thursday, so you can't count on so many of my deeply insightful, caffeine-fueled morning missives. "Be reasonable. See it my way."
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Post by Deleted on Nov 28, 2023 9:56:50 GMT
Try "A Conflict of Visions" by Thomas Sowell.
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Post by Norbert on Nov 28, 2023 11:03:28 GMT
Looks interesting. A quick look at reader commentary is constructive. Downloaded a free excerpt. Thx.
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Post by Karen on Nov 28, 2023 13:04:55 GMT
We have become such an ultra-binary community/country/world that there is a tendency to become offended at even a whiff of a trigger that sets us off. This can be perceived as too much "wokeness" (I get it; as a liberal, I am frequently face-palmed at comments by my left-leaning friends). At the same time, people became "woke" because some were sleeping in reality for too long. There is also a tendency for people with different perspectives to be defined by their opinions instead of the totality of the person. Kudos to richardsok for weighing in on his expertise in literature. Kudos to Norbert for adjusting the tone and tenor of his original post. chang has done an admirable job of creating a community. I applaud you two for respecting it. I've been constantly touring since summer but have a little more time to annoy people here. Take care, and have a safe holiday season. I do think social developments regarding "Woke" philosophy are worth a deeper look. Liberals like you and I believe in equal opportunity for all, individualism, free speech, tolerance for alternative lifestyles, and view totalitarianism of the Left and Right with alarm. We likely both appreciate Martin Luther King for his belief that the color of our skin shouldn't really matter. The Woke see all this very differently. Identity politics and intersectionality dominate: we are a product of our racial + sexual/gender + national origin + class makeup. It's Marxism on steroids; we're not just capitalists and workers, but belong to a multitude of other categories. As for individualism, you can forget about it. This has led to concepts like "Critical Race Theory", which teach white guilt and unconscious bias. As ridiculous as it sounds, this stuff dominates university and media organizations. It's intellectually appealing, just like Marxism. Ominously, the Woke typically loath Western society and particularly places like the US and Israel. They're sympathetic to Hamas and the Palestinians; never mind that these groups will hang you if you're gay or insult Mohammed. In other words, the Woke will embrace fascism as long as it involves non-white, non-Western, non-Jewish identity groups. So, I disagree that the problem is that we've become "binary". The problem is that an extreme, post-Marxist ideology has taken root around us. It's often confused with "Liberalism", but it's actually the opposite. ----- There! End of rant. My girlfriend is returning from the US on Thursday, so you can't count on so many of my deeply insightful, caffeine-fueled morning missives. "Be reasonable. See it my way." Despite this poster's "rant" being presented in a somewhat acceptable tone, it is odd that it hasn't been deleted by a site that expressly requires no political stuff to be posted. If that post isn't deeply political, perhaps the Adm can explain why it is not? And if it's not, and if the Adm is going to let that post stand, he should allow me to post my brief comments in response. IMO, rhythmmethod was absolutely correct when he stated, "We have become such an ultra-binary community/country/world..." To anyone who actually lives in the US, it's impossible to present an intelligent argument to the contrary. IMO, Norbert is absolutely wrong when he states, "The problem is that an extreme, post-Marxist ideology has taken root around us." Um, no. Everything changed in the US on June 16, 2015, the day a certain US politician (soon to be convicted felon) slowly descended down a golden escalator. That's the day MAGA, the other essential component of the "ultra-binary...country" was re-born. If the Adm is going to allow Norbert 's post, then some other poster should be allowed to make a detailed post on what they believe is "the (real) problem," the re-birth of MAGA and the birth of MAGAts. Or should we just go on our merry way, giving that politician a pass, under the theory that Norbert routinely posted elsewhere during his years in office, "Don't listen to what he says. Watch what he does." America and the world watched alright - on LIVE TV. He almost destroyed our democracy on January, 6, 2021. BTW, we're still watching, and he's still trying - EVERY. FREAKING. DAY.
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Post by Chahta on Nov 28, 2023 13:30:23 GMT
I do think social developments regarding "Woke" philosophy are worth a deeper look. Liberals like you and I believe in equal opportunity for all, individualism, free speech, tolerance for alternative lifestyles, and view totalitarianism of the Left and Right with alarm. We likely both appreciate Martin Luther King for his belief that the color of our skin shouldn't really matter. The Woke see all this very differently. Identity politics and intersectionality dominate: we are a product of our racial + sexual/gender + national origin + class makeup. It's Marxism on steroids; we're not just capitalists and workers, but belong to a multitude of other categories. As for individualism, you can forget about it. This has led to concepts like "Critical Race Theory", which teach white guilt and unconscious bias. As ridiculous as it sounds, this stuff dominates university and media organizations. It's intellectually appealing, just like Marxism. Ominously, the Woke typically loath Western society and particularly places like the US and Israel. They're sympathetic to Hamas and the Palestinians; never mind that these groups will hang you if you're gay or insult Mohammed. In other words, the Woke will embrace fascism as long as it involves non-white, non-Western, non-Jewish identity groups. So, I disagree that the problem is that we've become "binary". The problem is that an extreme, post-Marxist ideology has taken root around us. It's often confused with "Liberalism", but it's actually the opposite. ----- There! End of rant. My girlfriend is returning from the US on Thursday, so you can't count on so many of my deeply insightful, caffeine-fueled morning missives. "Be reasonable. See it my way." Despite this poster's "rant" being presented in a somewhat acceptable tone, it is odd that it hasn't been deleted by a site that expressly requires no political stuff to be posted. If that post isn't deeply political, perhaps the Adm can explain why it is not? And if it's not, and if the Adm is going to let that post stand, he should allow me to post my brief comments in response. IMO, rhythmmethod was absolutely correct when he stated, "We have become such an ultra-binary community/country/world..." To anyone who actually lives in the US, it's impossible to present an intelligent argument to the contrary. IMO, Norbert is absolutely wrong when he states, "The problem is that an extreme, post-Marxist ideology has taken root around us." Um, no. Everything changed in the US on June 16, 2015, the day a certain US politician (soon to be convicted felon) slowly descended down a golden escalator. That's the day MAGA, the other essential component of the "ultra-binary...country" was re-born. If the Adm is going to allow Norbert 's post, then some other poster should be allowed to make a detailed post on what they believe is "the (real) problem," the re-birth of MAGA and the birth of MAGAts. Or should we just go on our merry way, giving that politician a pass, under the theory that Norbert routinely posted elsewhere during his years in office, "Don't listen to what he says. Watch what he does." America and the world watched alright - on LIVE TV. He almost destroyed our democracy on January, 6, 2021. BTW, we're still watching, and he's still trying - EVERY. FREAKING. DAY. Talk about a rant. Give it up because you don’t have a clue. Talking about wokeism is talking about an idea in a book. You have turned it political by referring to a person. By the way it is not a “democracy”. It is a representative republic. Your post is another example of not accepting a persons opinion because you disagree. Don’t fret, your post and mine will be deleted. Not Norbert’s because he posted nothing wrong. howaya’s post should be deleted since he made it a personal insult.
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Post by Chahta on Nov 28, 2023 13:54:29 GMT
We have become such an ultra-binary community/country/world that there is a tendency to become offended at even a whiff of a trigger that sets us off. This can be perceived as too much "wokeness" (I get it; as a liberal, I am frequently face-palmed at comments by my left-leaning friends). At the same time, people became "woke" because some were sleeping in reality for too long. There is also a tendency for people with different perspectives to be defined by their opinions instead of the totality of the person. Kudos to richardsok for weighing in on his expertise in literature. Kudos to Norbert for adjusting the tone and tenor of his original post. chang has done an admirable job of creating a community. I applaud you two for respecting it. I've been constantly touring since summer but have a little more time to annoy people here. Take care, and have a safe holiday season. Happy holidays to you. A whiff waifed here. If it stayed as a book discussion, albeit about tenuous topics, all would be well. But the “ultra-binary” aspect was seized upon. Read John Grisham and Stuart Woodsbooks. Not much to discuss there.
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Post by Mustang on Nov 28, 2023 13:58:07 GMT
Liberals like you and I believe in equal opportunity for all, individualism, free speech, tolerance for alternative lifestyles, and view totalitarianism of the Left and Right with alarm. We likely both appreciate Martin Luther King for his belief that the color of our skin shouldn't really matter. The Woke see all this very differently. Identity politics and intersectionality dominate: we are a product of our racial + sexual/gender + national origin + class makeup. It's Marxism on steroids; we're not just capitalists and workers, but belong to a multitude of other categories. As for individualism, you can forget about it. This has led to concepts like "Critical Race Theory", which teach white guilt and unconscious bias. As ridiculous as it sounds, this stuff dominates university and media organizations. It's intellectually appealing, just like Marxism. Ominously, the Woke typically loath Western society and particularly places like the US and Israel. They're sympathetic to Hamas and the Palestinians; never mind that these groups will hang you if you're gay or insult Mohammed. In other words, the Woke will embrace fascism as long as it involves non-white, non-Western, non-Jewish identity groups. So, I disagree that the problem is that we've become "binary". The problem is that an extreme, post-Marxist ideology has taken root around us. It's often confused with "Liberalism", but it's actually the opposite. Wow! I'm a rural conservative and I agree with everything you just wrote.
Besides that I'm not saying more. I started to but better sense stopped me. These types of discussions tend to go downhill fast. I've reported this thread. The moderators should delete many of these posts, including mine, before it gets out of hand.
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Post by johntaylor on Nov 28, 2023 14:55:19 GMT
In the 1970s if you went to a law school like Georgetown or Harvard, you encountered "Crits" contending that The Law was an instrument of the status quo designed to help rich property owners maintain their situation, thereby oppressing poor and minority folks.
Some of these ideas have been in the groves of academe for quite a while.
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Post by racqueteer on Nov 28, 2023 15:51:07 GMT
I keep finding myself getting roped into this 'discussion'... The flaw here is that there is no one group, however identified, which is "at fault" here or "victimized" here. There are individuals who are at fault or victimized. Imo, you can find "victims of injustice" in every group; just as you can find oppressors in every group. Sentences which begin with, "The problem is..." should be immediately suspect. When we start to treat individuals as being of a 'group' rather than as individuals, we're being "-ist": racist, sexist, etc; whether that is favorable or not in intent.
Otoh, that is precisely how we are 'programmed'' to function: we infer from past experience and generalize based on that (often limited) experience. Quite frankly, we might as well just condemn the human race as a whole for being what it has developed into. Ime, any group which was in a position of control has tended to abuse that control. For myself, I recognize my flaws as a human and try to treat 'Bob', not as a member of this or that group, but as the individual I know as 'Bob'.
To equate 'Bob' exclusively with some ethnic group, some racial group, some religious group, etc. is illogical. To recognize that those identifiers have had an impact on who 'Bob' ultimately became is simply good common sense. People are complicated; reducing them to being a compilation of their components is just silly. On a personal note, expecting me to accept 'guilt' for being a white male is equally silly. My ancestors arrived here from Ireland three generations ago. 'We' had nothing to do with the abuses of this or that group; 'we' were too busy being abused ourselves. Otoh, I apparently have some Germanic stock as well; viking or...? Most 'Irish' have been Catholic, and I am Protestant, but the British tend to be Protestant. So am I a victim or an oppressor? This stuff is so-o confusing....
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Post by Chahta on Nov 28, 2023 16:09:41 GMT
I keep finding myself getting roped into this 'discussion'... The flaw here is that there is no one group, however identified, which is "at fault" here or "victimized" here. There are individuals who are at fault or victimized. Imo, you can find "victims of injustice" in every group; just as you can find oppressors in every group. Sentences which begin with, "The problem is..." should be immediately suspect. When we start to treat individuals as being of a 'group' rather than as individuals, we're being "-ist": racist, sexist, etc; whether that is favorable or not in intent.
Otoh, that is precisely how we are 'programmed'' to function: we infer from past experience and generalize based on that (often limited) experience. Quite frankly, we might as well just condemn the human race as a whole for being what it has developed into. Ime, any group which was in a position of control has tended to abuse that control. For myself, I recognize my flaws as a human and try to treat 'Bob', not as a member of this or that group, but as the individual I know as 'Bob'.
To equate 'Bob' exclusively with some ethnic group, some racial group, some religious group, etc. is illogical. To recognize that those identifiers have had an impact on who 'Bob' ultimately became is simply good common sense. People are complicated; reducing them to being a compilation of their components is just silly. On a personal note, expecting me to accept 'guilt' for being a white male is equally silly. My ancestors arrived here from Ireland three generations ago. 'We' had nothing to do with the abuses of this or that group; 'we' were too busy being abused ourselves. Otoh, I apparently have some Germanic stock as well; viking or...? Most 'Irish' have been Catholic, and I am Protestant, but the British tend to be Protestant. So am I a victim or an oppressor? This stuff is so-o confusing....
great common sense. We are humans with all our faults. But one fault we can control is tolerance. Tolerance is a huge thing missing today. This is a discussion board where we should be able to accept others opinions since investing gives us common ground to begin.
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Post by gman57 on Nov 28, 2023 16:25:10 GMT
re: our short human history... we are still infants/cavemen trying to leave our tribes and learn how to live with other tribes. We're not very good at it yet. Maybe in another 100 generations we'll make better progress.
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Post by Capital on Nov 28, 2023 17:18:24 GMT
re: our short human history... we are still infants/cavemen trying to leave our tribes and learn how to live with other tribes. We're not very good at it yet. Maybe in another 100 generations we'll make better progress. I'm not sure that another 100 generations of human existence will help. If you look back over the last 100 generations it appears that the tribes have just gotten bigger and the weapons a lot more dangerous. I shutter to think how much bigger the tribes will get and especially how much more dangerous the weapons will get to be. The question is - are we humans, as a group, really learning anything from all the mistakes of their past or will we continue to live them time and time again.
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Post by richardsok on Nov 28, 2023 17:28:57 GMT
Happy news for a change. In India --
Rescuers freed 41 miners trapped in a collapsed tunnel for 17 days -- all alive.
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