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Post by Chahta on Feb 9, 2022 14:02:55 GMT
mozart522 , for government employees not companies with 100 employees or more or any other individual citizen. Very narrow. That was a result of asking for a stay. If suit was brought, I believe the result would be different. Not sure what you are referencing. The SCOTUS case was from 1902. The recent ruling concerning forced vaccinations. |
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Post by Chahta on Feb 9, 2022 14:17:30 GMT
mozart522 said “ What I haven't seen data on is if the shutdowns really hurt business much.” It’s all over the news. Lack of available people to hire. Many businesses in my area cut hours or shutdown for lack of people. Many shelves cannot get stocked for lack of people.
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Post by mozart522 on Feb 9, 2022 14:28:06 GMT
Not sure what you are referencing. The SCOTUS case was from 1902. The recent ruling concerning forced vaccinations. OK, got it. Not really a case ruling as I understand it, just a side step and send it back down. Of course, it depends on the case, but there is SCOTUS precedent for mandatory vaccinations, which is really a misnomer, as one isn't actually forced to get the Vaccine, just has to face the consequences of not. SCOTUS upheld mandatory Vaccinations for some things before entering public school, for example. One of the major issues is who is issuing the mandate. SCOTUS would be far more likely to uphold a mandate if it was from either a state of federal law. EOs by govs or the President have a higher test for approval, as do new uses of an existing law like OSHA. So you may well be right about the outcome if this gets back up to the high court. |
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Post by mozart522 on Feb 9, 2022 14:33:46 GMT
mozart522 said “ What I haven't seen data on is if the shutdowns really hurt business much.” It’s all over the news. Lack of available people to hire. Many businesses in my area cut hours or shutdown for lack of people. Many shelves cannot get stocked for lack of people. How are you connecting the shutdowns, in most places, many months ago with the lack of people to hire? I don't really see that shutdowns caused an employee shortage as much at inflation and employees seeking higher wges and better working conditions. We are past the point where employees can sit home an draw UC, so the shortage must be due to other factors IMO. |
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Post by racqueteer on Feb 9, 2022 14:42:12 GMT
For me there is only one issue regarding vaccines: Does the vaccine reduce the likelihood of being hospitalized or not? My impression is that it does impact that figure for THIS infection. Does the benefit outweigh the potential downside? Again, imo, it does.
Regarding the mandates, my feeling is that the only issue SHOULD be: What will reduce the chance of infection in the FIRST place. Obvious is restricting your exposure to others in crowded venues. On masks, the issue (imo) is: How do we prevent aerosols from entering our lungs? It seems, naively perhaps, that masks should help with this in TWO ways: They SHOULD reduce the droplets being sent into the air by the infected, AND they SHOULD stop at least SOME of the droplets from entering the body.
Now if someone can explain to me precisely WHY I am incorrectly analyzing the situation, or where my impressions are incorrect, I'll be happy to listen.
I understand that in an issue this complex, with this number of confounding variables, numbers can be found to support ANY stance one wishes to take, but (again, imo) unless someone can argue with my analysis, it's going to be pretty hard to change my mind on the subject. For background, I've had this discussion at LENGTH with my nephew. A chiropractor, he has no love for the CDC and is an ardent antivaxxer.
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Post by Chahta on Feb 9, 2022 15:17:37 GMT
@mozart523, don’t know how to answer. It’s what I read and hear.
EDIT: I can add this. I believe the shortage is more at the lower wage/service demographics. The huge addition of jobs in that area, such as grocery pickers at Kroger, Walmart etc. has reduced the availability in that pool of folks. Fast food, Dollar Tree and the like have severe shortages of available potential employees. There was no such severe shortage before the "Shutdown". In my area the boat manufacturers are booming and have trouble hiring. $15 min wage is no longer a factor.
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Post by steelpony10 on Feb 9, 2022 15:28:49 GMT
racqueteer , From the people I have talked to including my son his wife and kids, it’s ignorance (9th grade biology, my son), distrust of authority (rampant in the world), religious beliefs (God’s will, my son), the slippery slope involving freedom of choice, it’s just a flu (my son) and it was untested (my son). Their facts. I see both sides. Remember these same people don’t get flu shots for similar reasons. My choice was purely to tip the odds in my favor a lifelong tool of choice based on known and tested facts. My wife and I are fully vaccinated.
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Post by Norbert on Feb 9, 2022 16:45:49 GMT
I don't think it's unreasonable to be skeptical about Covid vaccinations. An alternative might be to maintain excellent physical fitness plus monitor Vitamin D3 levels. Yes, if someone is overweight or has a poor immune system, vaccination would be a good idea. Going forward, we now have effective Covid infection treatment. Why not just focus on protecting the vulnerable part of the population? Plus, it's not clear than being vaccinated prevents us from spreading the virus. I was vaccinated with Pfizer last July, but got a Moderna booster in January. Since January I've had chronic trouble with my left arm; can't lift it over my head without pain. Don't know what's going on. I think I see why Djokovic refuses to be vaccinated. The guy's in perfect physical condition and doesn't want to put himself at risk.
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Post by Mustang on Feb 9, 2022 17:24:48 GMT
In the next few years, we will likely see stats on how many people died, not from COVID, but as a result of not being able to get timely hospital treatment because of all beds being filled or fear on spreading the infection. I had a friend whose heart procedure was postponed for those reasons and he died waiting for those procedures to be resumed. A lot of that happened but not because the beds were full. When the pandemic first started New York City got hit hard. Governments panicked expecting hospitals to be over run. In preparation they mandated emergency treatment only. It did hit some places hard but not here. Hospital rooms and hallways were almost empty. Nurses and doctors were laid off. Tests to detect cancer, heart disease and other things were postponed. I wonder how many may have died because of government over reaction. I suspect we will never know.
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Post by mozart522 on Feb 9, 2022 18:55:28 GMT
@mozart523, don’t know how to answer. It’s what I read and hear. EDIT: I can add this. I believe the shortage is more at the lower wage/service demographics. The huge addition of jobs in that area, such as grocery pickers at Kroger, Walmart etc. has reduced the availability in that pool of folks. Fast food, Dollar Tree and the like have severe shortages of available potential employees. There was no such severe shortage before the "Shutdown". In my area the boat manufacturers are booming and have trouble hiring. $15 min wage is no longer a factor. Correlation is not causation. How does the shutdown connect with the inability to hire folks now? I don't really see a nexis between them. People are picking jobs now based on both wages and working conditions. Perhaps boat manufacturing is not favored by the work force over something else. Simple supply and demand. The economy is booming. That usualy means lots of new jobs and new businesses. On top of that, we have lost many workers to COVID or retirement. |
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Post by bb2 on Feb 9, 2022 21:18:53 GMT
All I know is my ER doc buddy hates the unvaxed that come to the ER with covid. I want my doc to like me.
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Post by Chahta on Feb 9, 2022 22:53:59 GMT
@mozart523, don’t know how to answer. It’s what I read and hear. EDIT: I can add this. I believe the shortage is more at the lower wage/service demographics. The huge addition of jobs in that area, such as grocery pickers at Kroger, Walmart etc. has reduced the availability in that pool of folks. Fast food, Dollar Tree and the like have severe shortages of available potential employees. There was no such severe shortage before the "Shutdown". In my area the boat manufacturers are booming and have trouble hiring. $15 min wage is no longer a factor. Correlation is not causation. How does the shutdown connect with the inability to hire folks now? I don't really see a nexis between them. People are picking jobs now based on both wages and working conditions. Perhaps boat manufacturing is not favored by the work force over something else. Simple supply and demand. The economy is booming. That usualy means lots of new jobs and new businesses. On top of that, we have lost many workers to COVID or retirement. It's empirical. Feb 2020 no problem hiring. People lost jobs due to businesses (restaurants as an example). being shut down. Businesses open and can't hire people. I agree some have moved on to new jobs, like I said last post. Jobs created because of Covid. Online grocery ordering is here to stay. Visit your local Kroger. Another 900,000 dead people out of the work force, but still able to vote. The Covid shutdown upset the functional relationship between jobs and workers, exacerbated by prolonged government unemployment compensation and child tax credit.. |
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Post by BearMkt on Feb 10, 2022 0:51:38 GMT
I don't think it's unreasonable to be skeptical about Covid vaccinations. An alternative might be to maintain excellent physical fitness plus monitor Vitamin D3 levels. Yes, if someone is overweight or has a poor immune system, vaccination would be a good idea. Going forward, we now have effective Covid infection treatment. Why not just focus on protecting the vulnerable part of the population? Plus, it's not clear than being vaccinated prevents us from spreading the virus. I was vaccinated with Pfizer last July, but got a Moderna booster in January. Since January I've had chronic trouble with my left arm; can't lift it over my head without pain. Don't know what's going on. I think I see why Djokovic refuses to be vaccinated. The guy's in perfect physical condition and doesn't want to put himself at risk.
Sorry about your arm. Vaccinations are supposed to protect you from getting seriously ill from it. Masks are supposed to protect you from getting it. Staying home is supposed to protect everyone. The mandates in my opinion have done more harm than good but of course those who enjoy the control, say otherwise. |
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Post by Chahta on Feb 10, 2022 13:18:24 GMT
I don't think it's unreasonable to be skeptical about Covid vaccinations. An alternative might be to maintain excellent physical fitness plus monitor Vitamin D3 levels. Yes, if someone is overweight or has a poor immune system, vaccination would be a good idea. Going forward, we now have effective Covid infection treatment. Why not just focus on protecting the vulnerable part of the population? Plus, it's not clear than being vaccinated prevents us from spreading the virus............
It doesn't fit the agenda of blame and hate so popular now. |
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Post by racqueteer on Feb 10, 2022 14:25:43 GMT
I don't think it's unreasonable to be skeptical about Covid vaccinations. An alternative might be to maintain excellent physical fitness plus monitor Vitamin D3 levels. Yes, if someone is overweight or has a poor immune system, vaccination would be a good idea. Going forward, we now have effective Covid infection treatment. Why not just focus on protecting the vulnerable part of the population? Plus, it's not clear than being vaccinated prevents us from spreading the virus. I was vaccinated with Pfizer last July, but got a Moderna booster in January. Since January I've had chronic trouble with my left arm; can't lift it over my head without pain. Don't know what's going on. I think I see why Djokovic refuses to be vaccinated. The guy's in perfect physical condition and doesn't want to put himself at risk.
Healthy skepticism is hard to be against. ANYTHING which promotes good health is a good idea; i.e., exercise, vitamin D3 (and others), etc. As to the vaccination, I'm not sure the issue was EVER about eliminating infection entirely or eliminating spreading of the disease. One would HOPE they were natural outcomes, but it SHOULD have an impact on SERIOUS consequences; i.e., hospitalizations. I'm sorry to hear about your arm; hope you can get that straightened out!
Dojkovic... I understand his position, but theirs as well. He took a stance; they took a stance; we live with the consequences. It's unfortunate if you're a tennis fan, but no more so than banning Connors from the French in 1974, during the year he won 3 legs of the Grand Slam - and for four ADDITIONAL years after! The fact that he DEMOLISHED Rosewall, perhaps the greatest groundstroker of his era, TWICE in Grand Slam Finals that year, strongly suggests that he would have been successful in his bid there. We'll never know if he would have been only the third man to win a calendar-year Grand Slam, and Djokovic famously at least HAD his opportunity to do so last year.
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Post by mozart522 on Feb 10, 2022 14:51:06 GMT
Correlation is not causation. How does the shutdown connect with the inability to hire folks now? I don't really see a nexis between them. People are picking jobs now based on both wages and working conditions. Perhaps boat manufacturing is not favored by the work force over something else. Simple supply and demand. The economy is booming. That usualy means lots of new jobs and new businesses. On top of that, we have lost many workers to COVID or retirement. It's empirical. Feb 2020 no problem hiring. People lost jobs due to businesses (restaurants as an example). being shut down. Businesses open and can't hire people. I agree some have moved on to new jobs, like I said last post. Jobs created because of Covid. Online grocery ordering is here to stay. Visit your local Kroger. Another 900,000 dead people out of the work force, but still able to vote. The Covid shutdown upset the functional relationship between jobs and workers, exacerbated by prolonged government unemployment compensation and child tax credit.. Agree to disagree. Nothing you have said begins to explain why an temporary, short term shut down, now has the entire nation finding it difficult to get workers. Grocery stores NEVER shut down. People just quit wanting to go to them, hence the online ordering and in-store pickers bump. Same with bars and restaurants. A very significant portion of the population (i'll throw out 50% but likely higher) just plain refused to go in person during COVID pre-vaccine. Those businesses were in deep trouble and were actually bailed out by being forced to close and being compensated by the government. Your last sentense is true, but does nothing to directly explain why businesses can't hire workers. The market is down today on news that 200K+ jobless claims this last month. Now that everything is open, there should be demand for jobs on both sides. My view is there are just not enough workers to fill all the jobs. Many have quit the work force altogether. Others are choosing better paying jobs, or those with beter working conditions. Boat manufacturing is hard and dangerous work. Working for the government is much easier and less dangerous. |
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Post by racqueteer on Feb 10, 2022 14:52:45 GMT
"Vaccinations are supposed to protect you from getting seriously ill from it."
And SEEM to be doing exactly that. Not eliminate the POSSIBILITY of EVER becoming seriously ill.
"Masks are supposed to protect you from getting it."
SOME believed that to be the case. I think it SAFE to say that masks reduce the level of exhaled, and inhaled, vapor droplets from the air. Anything else is, imo, an unreasonable expectation borne of ignorance.
"Staying home is supposed to protect everyone."
And probably DOES; so far as that goes. China had initial success by doing precisely that.
"The mandates in my opinion have done more harm than good"
As it turns out; perhaps inevitably. Local measures, in areas which have significant inflows of people, are unlikely to be effective during a WORLDWIDE epidemic. Doesn't matter WHAT you do other than a TOTAL lockdown. Our approach of: taking measures 'here'; no measures 'there', international freedom of movement, letting things get out of hand BEFORE trying (futilely) to do anything at all, was doomed from the outset, but the virus was an unknown at the time. Getting everything RIGHT was unlikely. Knowing what we do NOW, I've no doubt that we would have handled things more effectively. But, yeah, a lot of what was done was closing the barn door AFTER the horse departed. Or, requiring barn doors to be closed even if one HAD no horses. Iow, business as usual for humans.
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Post by mozart522 on Feb 10, 2022 15:07:01 GMT
Interesting to me that all the posters here have pretty much all declared complete vaccination and booster. I know a lot of skeptics and they have every right to be, but science shows that negative reactions from the vaccines are rare. All vaccines have some incidence of negative reactions.
It would seem to be pretty unusual for the Vaccine to cause one to have a frozen shoulder and no other symptoms. Could be coincidence or could be that the needle, not the vaccine, caused an issue. A doctor and an MRI could probably figure it out
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Post by steelpony10 on Feb 10, 2022 16:36:58 GMT
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Post by Chahta on Feb 10, 2022 17:12:26 GMT
Nothing is perfect, as the saying goes. It should not be expected of the vaccine. In my neck of the woods 40% today are vaxed in the ICU.
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Post by Norbert on Feb 10, 2022 17:14:44 GMT
Thanks for posting this!
Agree that it's probably not the vaccine. One person suggested that the needle may have touched a nerve.
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Post by chapulin on Feb 10, 2022 18:51:01 GMT
When they were jawboning about the omicron spike they said to ignore the new cases and track the hospital numbers. While our new cases have been coming down they are still at 4x the high rate of transmission per 100 thousand population. The hospital numbers are declining slower per 100 thousand population. The 2 jab vaccinations are beginning to show up on hospital wards and with other medical challenges even the ICU. Generally the mechanical breathing devices are much more likely with the unvaxed. When the public refers to fully vaxed they are talking the original 2 jabs and those are enough to keep you out of the graveyard. The boosters are really the level required to stay out of the ICU and hospitals in general. In the US only about half of the fully vaxed are getting boosted.
We are wearing masks because we are trying to flatten the curve. Not since Alpha have the vaxes really helped block transmission. Stopping transmission wasn't part of the low bar to achieve Emergency Use Authorization and isn't really an expectation of the vaccination process. The mandates and masks help reduce the new cases and covid spread. The hospitals around personal freedoms were screaming for help and lining up the morgue trailers.
Thanks to Federal stimulus, learned from the 2008 financial crisis, the markets continued to dance even when the streets were empty. We were out car shopping in the last week and dealerships are talking about no cars on the lots for sale and selling into trickles of inventory being sent by the manufacturers. Are the masks really to blame for all of the supply chain issues? Are we going to learn about a new variant as we drop mandates in each state? We appear to be done with the Pandemic and the news has hidden the covid story in supply chains for the next couple of months. Our markets are focused on the world of meta and not watching the production lines.
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Post by FD1000 on Feb 16, 2022 15:10:46 GMT
I don't think it's unreasonable to be skeptical about Covid vaccinations. An alternative might be to maintain excellent physical fitness plus monitor Vitamin D3 levels. Yes, if someone is overweight or has a poor immune system, vaccination would be a good idea. Going forward, we now have effective Covid infection treatment. Why not just focus on protecting the vulnerable part of the population? Plus, it's not clear than being vaccinated prevents us from spreading the virus. I was vaccinated with Pfizer last July, but got a Moderna booster in January. Since January I've had chronic trouble with my left arm; can't lift it over my head without pain. Don't know what's going on. I think I see why Djokovic refuses to be vaccinated. The guy's in perfect physical condition and doesn't want to put himself at risk.
Healthy skepticism is hard to be against. ANYTHING which promotes good health is a good idea; i.e., exercise, vitamin D3 (and others), etc. As to the vaccination, I'm not sure the issue was EVER about eliminating infection entirely or eliminating spreading of the disease. One would HOPE they were natural outcomes, but it SHOULD have an impact on SERIOUS consequences; i.e., hospitalizations. I'm sorry to hear about your arm; hope you can get that straightened out!
Dojkovic... I understand his position, but theirs as well. He took a stance; they took a stance; we live with the consequences. It's unfortunate if you're a tennis fan, but no more so than banning Connors from the French in 1974, during the year he won 3 legs of the Grand Slam - and for four ADDITIONAL years after! The fact that he DEMOLISHED Rosewall, perhaps the greatest groundstroker of his era, TWICE in Grand Slam Finals that year, strongly suggests that he would have been successful in his bid there. We'll never know if he would have been only the third man to win a calendar-year Grand Slam, and Djokovic famously at least HAD his opportunity to do so last year.
Dojkovic is my favorite tennis player of all time and IMO the GOAT. I need him to win more grand slams to establish it. I consider the French open the lowest achievement among the grand slams. Real men compete on fast courts. Federer has the best talent, but it's not enough when you need to grind 4+ hours. One hand backhand eventually loses to 2 hands backhand, it's just physics. Australia is loony. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2022 16:39:23 GMT
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Post by Chahta on Feb 16, 2022 17:54:38 GMT
We better figure out how to live with this long term. Masks are not the answer. Israel has a study that a 4th jab is not great against Omicron. Locally 41% in ICU are vaccinated. Coming up on 6 months from my booster and have not heard a thing about #4.
Stupid singling out a freakin tennis player. At least he would be entertainment to a starved world. But then again no one is serious about Covid here since 20% of illegals carry the virus and are unvaxed.
The US deathrate is 1.2% compared to 1.4% for entire reporting world. Per capita rates mean nothing and is statistical mumbo jumbo IMHO. Only deaths count.
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Post by johntaylor on Feb 16, 2022 19:13:17 GMT
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Post by bb2 on Feb 16, 2022 19:58:05 GMT
There's a lovely cashier at the corner store who's face I'm excited to see someday soon.
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Post by richardsok on Feb 17, 2022 0:30:51 GMT
We better figure out how to live with this long term. Masks are not the answer. Israel has a study that a 4th jab is not great against Omicron. Locally 41% in ICU are vaccinated. Coming up on 6 months from my booster and have not heard a thing about #4. Stupid singling out a freakin tennis player. At least he would be entertainment to a starved world. But then again no one is serious about Covid here since 20% of illegals carry the virus and are unvaxed. The US deathrate is 1.2% compared to 1.4% for entire reporting world. Per capita rates mean nothing and is statistical mumbo jumbo IMHO. Only deaths count. Chahta -- My impressions follow. Let me know where you disagree. The Fauci/Wuhan plague is becoming ever-more benign with time as the majority are either vaxxed or have recovered to receive natural immunity. No immunity (vax or recovery) is iron-clad, but either will cause the disease to become much less severe. After two Moderna + booster, my case was so mild I didn't know I had it until I woke up at night drenched in perspiration as my unrealized fever broke. With my wife's Covid case, she felt dreary, tired and complaining. Then again, she's generally dreary, tired and complaining. The perfectly healthy young may, if they so decide, forego vaccinations at this point, as the meds have risks of their own. (Personal knowledge of this; my daughter, in splendid athletic shape, developed a racing heart syndrome and "brain fog" after her 2nd vax. She wound up in the ER and in cardiologist care. It was scary for a while.) We all afterward agreed, avoiding the booster was, in her case, logical. The obese, the diabetics, heavy smokers, those with emphysema or other debilitating conditions will, of course, have to maintain extreme care -- but I do think the country is rightfully getting back to normal. Mask mandates for children or healthy college kids are silly. |
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Post by BearMkt on Feb 17, 2022 0:44:27 GMT
I've known many people who've had both varieties, and no one I personally know got more than cold or flu-like symptoms. Of course, the 1% with co-morbidities are at risk of serious illness or death and I don't blame anyone who feels at risk for taking all necessary precautions.
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Post by racqueteer on Feb 17, 2022 3:10:05 GMT
Stupid singling out a freakin tennis player. At least he would be entertainment to a starved world. But then again no one is serious about Covid here since 20% of illegals carry the virus and are unvaxed. Two things: 1. Djokovic wasn’t “singled out”; he simply wasn’t allowed an exemption from the requirements. 2. Can you point to the data which supports your second statement? |
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