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Post by Norbert on Mar 15, 2024 8:00:09 GMT
Having just spent a week in fascinating Singapore on the return trip from my daughter's wedding in Sydney, I'm looking for insight about the reality of actually living there.
Basically, we fell in love with Singapore: the superb architecture set in tropical gardens, the happy people of mainly Chinese, Malay, and Indian heritage, the amazing cuisine, the cleanliness and safety, the cultural scene, the civility, etc.
Know that real estate is expensive and that papers aren't easy to get.
Has anyone lived / worked in Singapore?
How would you compare living in Bangkok (for example) to Singapore?
I'll certainly spend at least a month in Singapore on my next trip to Australia. Am playing with the idea of an actual move from France to Asia, though the next step would be to just rent for longer.
In any case, will keep the Greek holiday home, which I dearly love.
My motivations extend beyond family, but that's another story and gets into social/political stuff.
TIA for any informed opinion.
N.
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Post by chang on Mar 15, 2024 8:50:35 GMT
I lived 5 years in Singapore and 11 years in Bangkok. Two terrific but very different places to live. I’ll jot down a few brief thoughts later tonight. Ask keppelbay, who lived in S’pore as well.
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Post by yogibearbull on Mar 15, 2024 12:10:28 GMT
Jim Rogers, the famous investor & biker, was so impressed by China few years ago that at one time he thought of moving to China from the US. His kids have learned Chinese languages. But after looking more into it, and being warned about it by family and friends, he decided to move to Singapore. For him, that was the best of the East and the West. From what I have read (no first hand experience), Singapore is a small and very rule based society. So, one has to like or accept the local rules in the first place. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Rogers
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Post by johntaylor on Mar 15, 2024 13:40:17 GMT
The Rogers book Investment Biker was entertaining. He said on CNBC: “If you were smart in 1807, you moved to London. If you were smart in 1907, you moved to New York City. And if you are smart in 2007, you move to Asia.”
We visit Singapore every few years, but too hot/humid for us.
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Post by keppelbay on Mar 15, 2024 14:18:37 GMT
Hi Norbert, as chang, said, I too lived in Singapore. I worked there for 7 years. Your description brings up fond memories of early morning walks through the botanical garden, wonderful tropical vegetation and flowering trees everywhere. All the big city amenities. A super-interesting blend of cultures, underpinned by a government supported cultural arts scene with ambitious goals. There is a lot to do and a lot to enjoy (not least, the great food). There are two parallel economies. One for monied locals and expats - in which housing is expensive, and the finest of eveything from around the world is available at a price (you've seen Orchard Road). The other for 'ordinary' working folks is based around a housing market supported by the government that provides people the opportunity to own their own home (HDB flat) in residential communities with shared amenities (hawker centers = food courts and "wet markets" = fresh food markets). The housing is affordable, but not available unless you are a permanent resident. Public transport is good and inexpesive (taxis included). Car ownership is costly, and not necessary (Car ownership is seen as aspirational; a sign of financial success by a sector of society). Health care is world class, but as a foreigner you will need private insurance. I enjoyed my time there a great deal and have come to appreciate the thoughtful approach that the country's leadership takes toward making the society work for everyone. There are many positive aspects and some negatives. If you are interested, we can go into this in more depth offline.
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Post by anitya on Mar 15, 2024 16:24:16 GMT
Norbert, First heard about Crete from you. But since then my family discussed about moving there. Do you mind sharing why you are not considering spending more time there than just considering it as a vacation place for you? Thanks. If you do not mind local politics, I hear people mention Vietnam equally as Thailand / Bangkok. Neither of them are like living in the West but that does not bother me personally. I think Sing comes close to living like in the West but I do not hear too many people moving there to retire; it is more for working people. Even people from Malaysia who move to Sing to work, seem to move back to Malaysia to retire. Definitely would be interested to know what you end up doing and @chang’s feed back.
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Singapore
Mar 15, 2024 17:29:39 GMT
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Post by Norbert on Mar 15, 2024 17:29:39 GMT
Hi Norbert, as chang, said, I too lived in Singapore. I worked there for 7 years. Your description brings up fond memories of early morning walks through the botanical garden, wonderful tropical vegetation and flowering trees everywhere. All the big city amenities. A super-interesting blend of cultures, underpinned by a government supported cultural arts scene with ambitious goals. There is a lot to do and a lot to enjoy (not least, the great food). There are two parallel economies. One for monied locals and expats - in which housing is expensive, and the finest of eveything from around the world is available at a price (you've seen Orchard Road). The other for 'ordinary' working folks is based around a housing market supported by the government that provides people the opportunity to own their own home (HDB flat) in residential communities with shared amenities (hawker centers = food courts and "wet markets" = fresh food markets). The housing is affordable, but not available unless you are a permanent resident. Public transport is good and inexpesive (taxis included). Car ownership is costly, and not necessary (Car ownership is seen as aspirational; a sign of financial success by a sector of society). Health care is world class, but as a foreigner you will need private insurance. I enjoyed my time there a great deal and have come to appreciate the thoughtful approach that the country's leadership takes toward making the society work for everyone. There are many positive aspects and some negatives. If you are interested, we can go into this in more depth offline. Thanks much for your articulate comments. Yes, the botanical gardens are superb, the National Gallery was inspired, and there was even a Russian pianist who came to play Rachmaninoff's 24 Preludes. We lived on Saint Thomas Walk at River Valley for our week, with its stunning apartment towers, pools, and gardens. (I couldn't afford to buy there, even if I do get papers.) We enjoyed strolling over to Somerset and Orchard to eat. Almost 100% Chinese there, you hear a mix of English and Mandarin (?). Everyone seemed happy and welcoming. I'm not close to making a permanent move, but I do plan to spend a month there during my next trip to Australia. My daughter and her husband have been talking about a professional move to Singapore. Thanks for your offer to chat offline. N
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Post by Norbert on Mar 15, 2024 17:35:57 GMT
Norbert, First heard about Crete from you. But since then my family discussed about moving there. Do you mind sharing why you are not considering spending more time there than just considering it as a vacation place for you? Thanks. If you do not mind local politics, I hear people mention Vietnam equally as Thailand / Bangkok. Neither of them are like living in the West but that does not bother me personally. I think Sing comes close to living like in the West but I do not hear too many people moving there to retire; it is more for working people. Even people from Malaysia who move to Sing to work, seem to move back to Malaysia to retire. Definitely would be interested to know what you end up doing and @chang’s feed back. Hi Anitya, We've been spending a lot of time on Crete, maybe 4-5 months per year during the Springs and Falls. I love the place, but it's a big world. My daughter lives and works in Australia now, so that's a big reason for not spending more time on Crete. Also, Summers are extremely hot with lots of tourists, and Winters are a bit dull. Again, I will not sell the Crete house. But, am starting to imagine trading Paris for a place in Asia. Long story. Am happy to chat more about Crete if you want to. Have visited there since my student days, and bought property after the major 2015 crash. N.
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Singapore
Mar 16, 2024 15:36:04 GMT
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Post by Norbert on Mar 16, 2024 15:36:04 GMT
Jim Rogers, the famous investor & biker, was so impressed by China few years ago that at one time he thought of moving to China from the US. His kids have learned Chinese languages. But after looking more into it, and being warned about it by family and friends, he decided to move to Singapore. For him, that was the best of the East and the West. From what I have read (no first hand experience), Singapore is a small and very rule based society. So, one has to like or accept the local rules in the first place. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_RogersThanks. Here's a link to an interview with Jim Rogers at his Singapore house. He sounds quite happy living there, raising his two girls. medium.com/@flagtheory/i-met-a-jim-rogers-at-his-house-in-singapore-9c657b9ed6e6Our one week in Singapore was all tourism, not business. Yes, there are rules, but I welcome them. Petty crime is not tolerated; smoking in public spaces is forbidden and possessing drugs will get you executed. I love the civil behavior and civic pride. No "woke" nonsense; detected no resentment towards the British, observed the opposite. (I listened to a teacher talking about the colonial period with her class at the National Gallery.) There's a focus on being Singaporean, not on ethnic background. Lots to like. chang, would like to get your comparison to Bangkok and other observations, whenever you have time. Will spend July 21 to August 3 in London.
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Post by chang on Mar 17, 2024 9:37:32 GMT
chang , would like to get your comparison to Bangkok and other observations, whenever you have time. Will spend July 21 to August 3 in London. I won't be in London (finished my job there), but I will send a PM to you and another member who is there, and I recommend you guys hook up. Impossible to encapsulate 16 years of my life in Sing and BKK in a single internet post, so maybe I'll just mention a few things that come to mind by way of contrasts. It's complicated, because these are two of my favorite cities in the world, but they could hardly be more different. Singapore was almost "designed" by Lee Kuan Yew, based in many ways on Switzerland. It's a very well-thought through, well run city. To take an example, the long, straight road to Changi Airport can be quickly converted into an air strip in the even that the runways at Changi should ever become unusable. Singapore is incredibly efficient, you can do almost everything online, including maintaining your residency documentation, paying taxes on your housemaid, renewing your dog license ... everything. Singapore is uniquely (in Asia) clean, efficient, reliable, and relatively free of corruption (at least at all the levels you are likely to see or encounter). Singapore gets a somewhat bad rap as being being boring, morally conservative, and over judicial (who doesn't know about Michael Fay getting caned for spraying graffiti on cars). There is some truth to that, but it's also changed since the 60s and 70s. It is not true, for example, that chewing gum is illegal. (But you cannot buy gum; it's sale is prohibited. But if you bring gum into the country from outside, you can chew it - just don't litter!) It's a tiny country, so yeah it's a little boring. Very big on parks and nature, not so big on nightlife and extracurricular activities, although I think it does pretty well. There is a conservative feel to Singapore society, but then again that pervades most of Asia, even cities with infamous dens of vice like Bangkok. Singapore has Geylang with its brothels, so it's not that conservative. Singapore is awesome for food (like so many Asian metropolises), families (beaches and Sentosa for kids), investing (no capital gains tax - but woe unto those who only have US passports: the banks won't open a brokerage account for you), internet entrepreneurs, scholars (great university). NOT a great country for athletes. The country is small, the weather is tropical (hot and humid), and there isn't much of a sports culture. The parenting focus seems to be very much more on academics than athletics. I dare say that Singaporeans have probably never won any major Olympic event except ping pong. Bangkok is pretty much the opposite of all that. But Thailand is so big, that one really has to be careful about distinguishing between Bangkok and the other regions - the south, the middle, the north, etc. As a rule, Thailand is dirty, inefficient, unreliable, and rife with corruption. They key to enjoying life there is to learn how to navigate these things, and even find the charm in them. The inefficiency is legendary. I recall renewing my residency visa once. After waiting an hour or more for my number to be called, I proceeded to the immigration officer's desk, where there were two piles of papers each at least 18 inches high on her desk -- that was my file. Paper, paper, paper, paper, stapling, stapling, stapling, stapling ... ten people doing the work of two ... pictures, signatures, paper clips, photocopies, more stapling, more signatures, more paper clips, ... it just goes on and on and on. That's Thailand. In Singapore, it would be a couple of clicks of a mouse and done. The food is awesome. The people are fantastic. The culture is rich. The entertainment and sightseeing opportunities are almost limitless given the vast array of natural wonders in Thailand. The weather, like Singapore, is hot and humid, so the one thing Thailand is not great for is running marathons or iron mans. Bureaucracy, as I already alluded to, is monstrous and can be treacherous, so it's not a very business friendly place for foreign entrepreneurs (but there are some exceptions). I should mention that it's an extremely safe country - every bit as safe as Singapore, I would say - despite being a much poorer country. Two last, quick comments: 1) Cost of living: Singapore is a highly developed, modern city-country and so the cost of living is not cheap; probably the highest in Asia. Bars tend to be very expensive. Cars, too: the country imposes a very hefty tax on cars to try to limit/control traffic. (I won't even begin to describe what traffic jams in Bangkok or Jakarta are like, because I couldn't begin to.). You can do many things very cheaply in Singapore, like eating at hawker centers (outdoor food courts). And the income tax is only 10-15%, which is very attractive. Bangkok and Thailand in general can be as expensive or as cheap as you want. You can have a great meal for $1 or $100, depending on whether you get crab fried rice in a hole-in-the-wall or eat steak at Gaucho on Sukhumvit Road. You can buy a decent 2-BR apartment in Bangkok for $50,000 or $5,000,000 depending on where it is. Everything imported is expensive, from breakfast cereal to automobiles. Everything domestically made is quite cheap. 2) Health care: In my opinion, both Singapore and Bangkok have the best medical care in the world. Assuming you have private insurance, these are THE two best places on the planet for health care. I could go into details, but it's not really necessary. If I need major surgery, I'm going to Bangkok for it.
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Post by racqueteer on Mar 17, 2024 13:59:21 GMT
Just as an aside, I doubt "Singaporeans have probably never won any major Olympic event except ping pong" is likely with China in the mix. Dated information, but back in my serious playing days, the top 50 players in the world were all Chinese!
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Post by yogibearbull on Mar 20, 2024 10:40:13 GMT
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Post by chang on Mar 20, 2024 11:21:31 GMT
Continuing the discussion of Lee Kuan Yew from the “what are you reading?” thread, I think his biggest impact on Singapore might be what can be broadly termed racial harmony. Singapore is multi racial (Chinese, Malaysian, Indian, and others) with stark cultural differences. Singapore took a different path than Malaysia. Malaysia is 30% Chinese and 70% ethnic Malays. The Chinese run almost all the businesses in Malaysia and are, as a rule, more successful in practically everything. So Malaysia has an institutionalized “affirmative action” system which puts the Chinese at a disadvantage in almost every way. Malays get preferential treatment in everything: applying for a job, interest rates on a loan, everything. This system was implemented in the last century and was intended to be temporary until the Malays had overcome their disadvantaged position, but it became an institution and has never been dismantled.
Lee Kuan Yew believed in respect for cultural differences, traditions, and beliefs, but above all on a strictly meritocratic approach to government and society. He worked to make opportunities and education available to all, to make Singapore color-blind and ensure equality for all races and creeds, but the country’s institutions are founded on meritocracy and there is no preferential treatment for anyone, including in the justice system.
Personally, I think this was one of LKY’s greatest contributions to Singapore.
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Post by saratoga on Mar 20, 2024 15:29:19 GMT
Singapore got rid of estate/inheritance tax. On the other hand, the cost of living is high (although you can have good cheap meals at food courts) and foreigners pay surcharge when purchasing dwellings. Japan, on the other hand, has high inheritance tax but relatively low cost of living. Both countries are very safe and law abiding.
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Singapore
Mar 20, 2024 15:37:46 GMT
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Post by chang on Mar 20, 2024 15:37:46 GMT
saratoga: I find Japan’s cost of living very high, at least as perceived by a visitor: cost of taxis, hotels, restaurants, supermarket groceries, miscellaneous staples, etc. I’m thinking mainly of Tokyo; prices are a little lower in towns and villages.
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Post by saratoga on Mar 20, 2024 22:18:01 GMT
saratoga : I find Japan’s cost of living very high, at least as perceived by a visitor: cost of taxis, hotels, restaurants, supermarket groceries, miscellaneous staples, etc. I’m thinking mainly of Tokyo; prices are a little lower in towns and villages.
With weak yen, Japan is a bargain now, although yen may appreciate in the future. Taxi, fruits and some vegetables are relatively expensive in Tokyo. You can stay in a good, clean (although small) business hotel room for less than $100/per room/per night in Tokyo. There are expensive restaurants in Tokyo but typical restaurants are inexpensive: typically $10-$20 for lunch (tax included, no tip).
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Singapore
Mar 21, 2024 6:42:20 GMT
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Post by chang on Mar 21, 2024 6:42:20 GMT
saratoga That’s true the weak yen makes Japan more affordable for tourists and expats paid in USD, but that doesn’t apply to the purchasing power of locals who earn and spend JPY. This cost of living index puts Japan at #21 and Singapore at #29. www.worlddata.info/cost-of-living.php“Cost of living” can be defined in different ways so there probably isn’t one correct answer to a question like this. I recall, living in Shanghai, Dubai, and Bangkok, that my “cost of living” could be either very low or very high depending on how I chose to live, specifically, where I ate and what I shopped for.
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Singapore
Mar 21, 2024 18:30:05 GMT
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Post by Norbert on Mar 21, 2024 18:30:05 GMT
Singapore got rid of estate/inheritance tax. On the other hand, the cost of living is high (although you can have good cheap meals at food courts) and foreigners pay surcharge when purchasing dwellings. Japan, on the other hand, has high inheritance tax but relatively low cost of living. Both countries are very safe and law abiding. I don't know Singapore as well as you, but I observed that the MRT and buses offer first class transport at low cost (about $1 USD to go anywhere in the city). The food courts and many restaurants offer quite good value compared to other first-world countries. As for real estate, it's very expensive for non residents, but not for citizens. Airbnb pretty much doesn't exist, so visitors are forced to pay top dollar at hotels. It's true that Singapore is safe; deviant behavior (drugs, theft, smoking) isn't tolerated. We lived with an Israeli couple for our one-week visit. They had Hebrew quotes and mezuzah displayed on their front door. No problem in Singapore, big problem in France.
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Singapore
Mar 21, 2024 18:58:13 GMT
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Post by chang on Mar 21, 2024 18:58:13 GMT
I should perhaps have mentioned it - Singapore has the death penalty for drugs (serious crimes, eg selling). It would be extremely unwise for anyone to enter Singapore with any kind of drugs.
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sgra
Lieutenant
Posts: 66
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Post by sgra on Mar 22, 2024 3:17:28 GMT
Likely a typo but "menuzah" should be mezuzah.
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