marg
Ensign
Posts: 38
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Post by marg on Feb 27, 2024 14:34:55 GMT
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bruce
Lieutenant
Posts: 56
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Post by bruce on Feb 27, 2024 15:22:52 GMT
Marg, Thanks for sharing. It is nice to be reminded that there are very thoughtful and caring people among us.
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Post by FD1000 on Feb 28, 2024 19:49:21 GMT
Another opinion. Why would you pay for MD students? Health care is the best place to find a job forever with high pay. US MDs make a lot of money over the years and much more than other countries. These MDs can easily pay back their high tuition and they do. All the MDs I know retired with several million portfolio. At least make these student give back to society after they graduate by working in far away small poor towns for 5-10 years where the locals have inferior/NO healthcare + MD salaries are much lower. After they do that, pay their tuition.
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Post by anitya on Feb 28, 2024 20:14:01 GMT
Most countries require at least 3 yrs less education to get the MD degree than what is required in the US. Also, medical education is wildly cheaper ( Govt subsidized) in their premier institutions in other countries. MDs in the US already provide cheap labor during their residency period which can last from 4-6 six years, if they do not do a 2 yr fellowship afterwards. So, they get an MD at 26 and finish residency at 32, the last six yrs they get paid the same as a minimum wage worker in CA, given the ungodly hours they work during residency. I think it is perfectly fine to waive their tuition fees. I think they provide one of the most useful and stressful services to the society - better than multi-millionaire / billionaire crypto software kings.
If it were such a lucrative profession, we would not have so many MDs quit to do something else.
One of the good immigration reforms would be to require US rural service of foreign MDs who migrate to the US.
P.S.: I have recent MD nieces and nephews in three different continents.
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Post by FD1000 on Mar 3, 2024 5:28:34 GMT
Sure, to become MD you go into debt, but the salaries compared to other countries are enormous. These MDs can easily pay it. Examples: my kids friend became an ER doctor, her first salary for 35 hours was $300K, and that was more than 5 years ago. Dermatology + General surgeon make about $400-500K, Ortho + Cardio MDs make $500K and up, a good family Doctor in a big city can easily make $250K. The smart doctors hire PAs and paid them a 1/3 but still charge almost the full amount. They also hire someone with 2-3 years experiences instead of RN. They run the bill with extra checks, and labs. They ask their patients to come and see them to get results. Many create a pool of doctors and share the overhead. Some of the best doctors refuse to see patients with bad insurance who pay them less money. Lastly, all the doctors I know from women's MD, to Ortho, Allergy, ophthalmology, general surgery are all millionaires. Paying $250-300K debt is nothing. In the other countries, the debt is low but MDs make about what engineers are making + they have to work for national HC and see patients privately after they have years of experience. In the US $250-300K debt sounds huge but when you make so much money, you can easily pay it in 5-10 years but then you keep making a lot more for another 30 years. You can see global HC by country www.internationalinsurance.com/health/systems/#:~:text=Healthcare%20System%20Performance%20Ranking,domestic%20product%20on%20health%20care.
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Post by Karen on Mar 3, 2024 10:59:11 GMT
Here are the real salaries of medical professionals from a couple of different sources that reasonably tie to each other: www.bls.gov/ooh/highest-paying.htmwww.investopedia.com/personal-finance/top-highest-paying-jobs/www.forbes.com/advisor/education/career-resources/what-are-the-highest-paying-jobs-in-the-u-s/And one link related to their average debt and the average timeframe to repay: www.bankrate.com/loans/student-loans/average-medical-school-debt/Real world experience: My husband used to manage portfolios of many HNW clients (and HNW wannabes!), including many persons in the medical profession, mostly MDs. Interns & Residents pay was ridiculously LOW and that coupled with the extremely high costs of their education, caused many of them financial hardships for years-to-decades, and several were never able to overcome them. Sure, MDs and other high ranking medical professionals CAN make astronomical salaries and live the high life, but the median salaries are significantly lower. My husband was not privy to all of their salaries, but the highest salary he ever saw was about $450K for the head of I&R teaching at one of the country's leading hospital chains. And generally speaking, he never knew of MDs who were loose with their personal income data to the point where somebody not privy to their personal income data would be able to quote the salaries of several doctors they knew or knew of! The previous poster paints a picture and states numbers that simply are not accurate based on my husband's real life experience and the links provided.
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Post by FD1000 on Mar 3, 2024 13:27:12 GMT
Unfortunately, your numbers are wrong, my son was an MD recruiter for several years. I was an IT developer for about 15 years for Medicaid + Medicare + developed software for hospitals how to save money + increase profits. I'm talking about well established MDs in big cities. Just looking at one link www.investopedia.com/personal-finance/top-highest-paying-jobs is enough to make my point. At the top of the list are all MDs. Computer and Information Systems Manager, one of the highest pay, is at the bottom, enough said. I still don't agree with the salaries in your link because part of my system development were to assess hospital salaries. Just to make my point, I looked for a salary for a cardio Md in ATL, the first one I found offers $800K based salary ( www.indeed.com/q-cardiothoracic-surgery-l-georgia-jobs.html?vjk=d33e6c793df8acb2&advn=1558542801238002). The job is for (Physician) Surgery: Vascular - Vascular Surgeon position with a starting salary of $800,000 plus $150,000 sign on bonus in a small town in GABase Salary: $800,000 Sign on bonus: $150,000 Relocation (Reimb/IRS guidelines for direct relo exp up to) $15,000 RVU Threshold 12,308 Comp per Excess RVU $65.00 Comp per Excess RVU >Tier II $55.00 CME $ $7,000 PTO/CME days 20 Holidays 7 ========== That's not all many of them offer ownership/partnership positions. The problem is most don't have a clue how much MDs in the US make.
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Post by archer on Mar 3, 2024 15:31:01 GMT
Any ideas on what % of time in the office is billable for private practices? A salary is a sure thing, while drs with private practices likely have some downtime depending on the supply/demand in their area. I'm guessing it is not uncommon for small private practices to have only 6 hours or less of billable time in an 8 hour day.
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Post by anitya on Mar 3, 2024 22:23:34 GMT
what the f is going on in this thread?
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Post by rhythmmethod on Mar 3, 2024 22:27:48 GMT
what the f is going on in this thread? I'd say this thread is becoming "full of dung".
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Post by win1177 on Mar 3, 2024 22:46:46 GMT
What FD is quoting are pretty extreme numbers for US MD’s. Most US physicians make much less than some of the figures he quotes. The average physician in the US makes approximately $229,000 per year, and that is before taxes, etc. Typically physicians who do procedures (surgeons, GI physicians, Radiologists, etc.) make more, primary care MD’s make less. The lowest incomes typically are in Pediatrics, Family Medicine, General Internal Medicine, Psychiatry. Employed physicians, either at US medical schools/ teaching facilities, as well as hospital employed MD’s make LESS than physicians in private practice, BUT they (generally), have better hours/ call schedules/ vacation schedules/ etc.
You basically “give up” some income for a less BRUTAL schedule when you become employed. During my training, I had to pay for 4 years of medical school (after 4 years at University), and I was paid VERY low amounts during my internship and 6 years of residency (7 years total). I didn’t actually make a “decent income” ($100K+) until I was 31 years of age. And I went straight through training, others often wait several years to get accepted to medical school, etc.
Yes we do make VERY good money, BUT I had to work OVER 100 hours per week (for MANY years), take call every third night (for YEARS), go into the hospital at night (for decades), then work all day the next day, etc. It can be a brutal “path” to wealth, and when I talk with my peers from High School, many of them have done just as well (or better) than me and had a LOT more time off, family time, etc. I have many friends who have been just as “successful”, opening small businesses, etc. When I finally sold my practice to the hospital, I had to write off well over $1,000,000 in “free care” in the last seven years. That was a LOT of my “time and effort”, and most small business owners never encounter that type of situation.
Win
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Post by Karen on Mar 4, 2024 13:21:12 GMT
Well, you have the comments of a 30-year CFA/CFP who worked directly with HNW and HNW wannabe clients and examined their actual W-2s and 1040s and those of a retired MD on the one side, and you have the comments of a former IT worker on the other side.
Take your pick on who you want to believe about the topic.
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Post by Mustang on Mar 4, 2024 13:56:13 GMT
There is just something wrong about millionaires whining about how hard they had to work when many Americans are working two jobs just to pay the bills. There are many professions that require just as much dedication as doctors that doesn't pay nearly as much. The clergy, the military and teaching are three.
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Post by win1177 on Mar 4, 2024 14:46:14 GMT
There is just something wrong about millionaires whining about how hard they had to work when many Americans are working two jobs just to pay the bills. There are many professions that require just as much dedication as doctors that doesn't pay nearly as much. The clergy, the military and teaching are three. Mustang, Hopefully you didn’t think I was “whining” about how hard I worked. I am very grateful and blessed to have been a physician for many years, and thoroughly enjoyed my career! I also made a very good income and feel very lucky to have had many patients who entrusted me with their care. I also really enjoyed my work, and given the choice, would do it over again in a heartbeat! But it is a long path, with a lot of “bumps” in the road, like many careers. I was just bothered by some of what FD said, and felt it was appropriate to speak my peace, from “my own perspective”, about his statements. Yes, some physicians make HUGE incomes, and become very, very wealthy. Most of us do very well, and with reasonably good savings habits, can (and should) ultimately retire as “millionaires”. My average income during my “peak earnings” was in the low 200’s in private practice (~10years), and less as a medical school professor, but with much better hours/ call schedule, etc. But it is a long “slog”, and you must make sacrifices to get there. You also need to be very good at “delaying gratification”, as you need to “skip” or delay many things that others in their 20’s are enjoying. Other careers, are just as long and difficult, and (unfortunately) often do not have the same financial “rewards” as being as physician. Teachers, military personnel, the clergy, and others are three that quickly come to mind! Win
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Post by win1177 on Mar 4, 2024 14:48:39 GMT
All, I also feel as if this thread has run its course, or we have beat the daylights out of this dead horse.
Win
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Post by liftlock on Mar 4, 2024 16:44:46 GMT
I have enjoyed this thread and becoming better informed about what physicians earn.
I believe we are going to have growing shortage of physicians in the years ahead. In NJ, it can take 4-6 months to see some specialists. The demographics of an aging population and government controls to rein in costs seem likely to make the situation worse.
This thread began by pointing out that someone had made a generous charitable contribution making free tuition available to students at a medical school.
The OP FD expressed the view that the donor's contribution might have been better spent by requiring some type of public service obligation in exchange for free tuition.
If were ever to make a billion dollar's, I might be likely to donate free tuition with some community or military service strings attached. I suspect there are many Medical schools who would love to have free tuition money donated on that basis.
At the same time it hard to argue that original donation was not made for a worthy cause. Many of the free tuition recipients may end up paying it forward. I suspect that many students go into medicine for the rewarding challenge of helping others improve their health, and not just for the money. There are easier ways to make more money.
Thanks to those who contributed to the thread.
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Post by anitya on Mar 4, 2024 17:10:30 GMT
liftlock , OP did not share any opinion but simply shared the link to a news item for readers pleasure. There was wisdom in OP, marg ’s, action. We cleverly ignored it. p.s.: I noticed I am posting way too much. I will take a break.
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Post by bizman on Mar 4, 2024 18:12:28 GMT
This makes me think of a comment Charlie Munger made in one of his last interviews, that he was a huge fan of civilization and its progress. The font of all of that is the good, decent people who work hard, take care of their families, and treat their fellow man well.
Capitalism has gotten a bad name lately in certain quarters, but after a super successful rich person has bought a couple of houses, lived it up, and taken care of their families, what is to be done with the excess? It says something great that gifts like the $1 billion from the Gottesman's get made. And it's their money so they can do what they want with it.
Despite all of the noise and negativity in the world, there is a lot of good that goes on. Important to remember this when "if it bleeds, it leads" is the philosophy filling the news and our social media feeds.
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Post by liftlock on Mar 4, 2024 18:16:36 GMT
liftlock , OP did not share any opinion but simply shared the link to a news item for readers pleasure. There was wisdom in OP, marg ’s, action. We cleverly ignored it. p.s.: I noticed I am posting way too much. I will take a break. Anitya, you are correct. Thanks for catching my error. I will correct my post to reflect that. My apologies to marg, the OP.
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Post by yogibearbull on Mar 4, 2024 23:50:56 GMT
I used the trick explained in this link so that this thread will NEVER flash as New on my Recent Thread view (I don't use Recent Post view). I was hoping it would be LOCKED or ENABLE-FALLING be used. big-bang-investors.proboards.com/post/46472/thread
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Post by chang on Mar 5, 2024 6:10:49 GMT
Thread locked by popular demand.
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