|
|
Post by mozart522 on Jan 13, 2024 14:45:00 GMT
Once again, Vanguard has decided to tell us what we should consider a decent investment and have decided not to support buying bitcoin spot ETFs on their brokerage platform. They did something similar with ETNs a few years ago. Since I'm not interested in either type of investment, it is no big deal to me personally, but I do disagree with the idea of Vanguard playing "big brother" with investor's money. Wonder what others think. I know many have left Vanguard already.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2024 16:06:58 GMT
We are a very litigious society and I think the chance of lawsuits from investors not understanding the risk of a product is probably pretty high for crypto-based investments. I don't blame Vanguard for passing.
|
|
|
|
Post by mozart522 on Jan 13, 2024 16:15:30 GMT
We are a very litigious society and I think the chance of lawsuits from investors not understanding the risk of a product is probably pretty high for crypto-based investments. I don't blame Vanguard for passing. Yet FIDO already has a spot ETF FBTC as does Blackrock. Two of the big three. I don't blame VG for passing but lawsuits is not likely the reason IMO. |
|
|
|
Post by yogibearbull on Jan 13, 2024 16:19:33 GMT
From what I read at Twitter, Vanguard not only is not allowing these NEW Bitcoin ETFs, it has stopped trading in the OLDER futures-based crypto ETFs.
There was one unusual case - someone had transferred GBTC to Vanguard (and that was allowed), he sold thinking that he will now replace it with a cheaper Bitcoin ETF. But he is now stuck in cash. VG has NO EXCEPTIONS.
I think that VG stopped supporting leveraged ETFs a while ago.
Many have reported quitting Vanguard. Their complaint is that caution is fine, but VG is just overdoing it with these controls on brokerage accounts.
|
|
|
|
Post by steadyeddy on Jan 13, 2024 17:04:41 GMT
From what I read at Twitter, Vanguard not only is not allowing these NEW Bitcoin ETFs, it has stopped trading in the OLDER futures-based crypto ETFs. There was one unusual case - someone had transferred GBTC to Vanguard (and that was allowed), he sold thinking that he will now replace it with a cheaper Bitcoin ETF. But he is now stuck in cash. VG has NO EXCEPTIONS. I think that VG stopped supporting leveraged ETFs a while ago. Many have reported quitting Vanguard. Their complaint is that caution is fine, but VG is just overdoing it with these controls on brokerage accounts. This "conservative posture" of VG I fully support. Crypto in my book is not an asset... |
|
|
|
Post by retiredat48 on Jan 13, 2024 17:12:51 GMT
I strongly endorse what Vanguard has done.
Fidelity missed out on starting their own ETFs, when Vanguard was an early pioneer. Hooray Vanguard.
That Vanguard dares to be different and say we are not going to provide a product that could do serious harm to investors in the future, is to be applauded IMO.
BTW I do not think Jack Bogle, Vgd founder, would have endorsed any bitcoin ETF. (Bogle did not like any ETFs).
BTW #2...I see a very real possibility that in my kid's lifetime they will, in the future, see Bitcoin at $500,000 each.......................
.........................and $5 each!
And as a black swan, a possible major contributor to a worldwide Depression.
My one opinion of many.
R48
|
|
|
|
Post by mozart522 on Jan 13, 2024 18:42:21 GMT
I strongly endorse what Vanguard has done. Fidelity missed out on starting their own ETFs, when Vanguard was an early pioneer. Hooray Vanguard. That Vanguard dares to be different and say we are not going to provide a product that could do serious harm to investors in the future, is to be applauded IMO. BTW I do not think Jack Bogle, Vgd founder, would have endorsed any bitcoin ETF. (Bogle did not like any ETFs). BTW #2...I see a very real possibility that in my kid's lifetime they will, in the future, see Bitcoin at $500,000 each.......................
.........................and $5 each!And as a black swan, a possible major contributor to a worldwide Depression. My one opinion of many. R48 "That Vanguard dares to be different and say we are not going to provide a product that could do serious harm to investors in the future, is to be applauded IMO." Well that is really my problem with this. I applaud Vanguard for not starting its own spot BC ETF, but am less sympathetic to a brokerage platform stopping clients from buying other firms ETFs. I was always told ETFs were traded like stocks. What is next? Vanguard deciding what stocks are appropriate. To be clear, I wouldn't own any asset that depends solely on speculation for possible returns, but a client with 1M at Vanguard that wants to invest in bitcoin should be allowed to, possible with a warning. Thanks for your opinion 48 |
|
|
|
Post by richardsok on Jan 13, 2024 21:26:19 GMT
mozart --
I should mention that Mer Lynch also limits what its retail customers can trade: no 2x leveraged ETFs, no inverse (bearish) ETFs -- and many others. They don't call her "Mother Merrill" for nothing.
|
|
|
|
Post by yogibearbull on Jan 13, 2024 22:01:26 GMT
Apparently Merrill looked at all that trading volume on day 1 and decided to allow Bitcoin ETF trading from day 2.  www.wsj.com/livecoverage/stock-market-today-dow-jones-bank-earnings-01-12-2024/card/merrill-set-to-allow-bitcoin-etf-trading-later-today-7BJx9voSOud8rysOnoB5IMO, brokerage accounts should have flexibility. Requiring special qualifications is OK. For example, a basic brokerage account is a cash-account. But people can get approval for margin & options trading. So, I have those although I no longer use margin and use options only occasionally. Something similar can be done for leveraged ETFs, crypto ETFs, etc. I haven't dumped VG Brokerage yet. I didn't want VG Brokerage a/c anyway (I have had those for years at Fido and Schwab), but VG made a business decision a couple of years ago, and forced VG mutual fund a/c to convert to VG Brokerage a/c. So, the world had to follow it. Additionally, VG upset us recently when it suddenly decided to be strict about min for Admiral classes. In an IRA account, it wasn't even possible to shift things to cover the min because of market declines, and we don't have earned income to just add funds to the IRA. I wrote to VG asking of exception - no answer. So, I dumped ALL those VG Admiral funds and replaced them with non-VG ETFs at VG. This crypto-ETF issue at VG doesn't bother me, but the 3rd time VG upsets us, we will dump VG itself (3-strikes and out principle). Enough of this penny-pinching nonsense. There are many ETFs now that have lower ERs than VG. So, VG advertises that it has the lowest cost "on average" or "overall". |
|
|
|
Post by archer on Jan 14, 2024 0:52:56 GMT
Investors can let their money vote for whether or not brokerages are behaving in their best interest. I like Fidelities approach of informing investors of riskier assets, and having to add permission to their settings.
|
|
|
|
Post by steadyeddy on Jan 14, 2024 1:03:28 GMT
mozart -- I should mention that Mer Lynch also limits what its retail customers can trade: no 2x leveraged ETFs, no inverse (bearish) ETFs -- and many others. They don't call her "Mother Merrill" for nothing. Merrill would not allow me to buy VPLS (core plus bond ETF) from Vanguard. I agree brokerages reserve the right to restrict access. At least ML is open and honest about it. I call it a suitability decision they make which is part of being a fiduciary. It is sort of like parents: different sets of parents allow different types of things for their children. I am absolutely OK with it. |
|
|
|
Post by retiredat48 on Jan 14, 2024 17:09:00 GMT
I strongly endorse what Vanguard has done. Fidelity missed out on starting their own ETFs, when Vanguard was an early pioneer. Hooray Vanguard. That Vanguard dares to be different and say we are not going to provide a product that could do serious harm to investors in the future, is to be applauded IMO. BTW I do not think Jack Bogle, Vgd founder, would have endorsed any bitcoin ETF. (Bogle did not like any ETFs). BTW #2...I see a very real possibility that in my kid's lifetime they will, in the future, see Bitcoin at $500,000 each.......................
.........................and $5 each!And as a black swan, a possible major contributor to a worldwide Depression. My one opinion of many. R48 "That Vanguard dares to be different and say we are not going to provide a product that could do serious harm to investors in the future, is to be applauded IMO." Well that is really my problem with this. I applaud Vanguard for not starting its own spot BC ETF, but am less sympathetic to a brokerage platform stopping clients from buying other firms ETFs. I was always told ETFs were traded like stocks. What is next? Vanguard deciding what stocks are appropriate. To be clear, I wouldn't own any asset that depends solely on speculation for possible returns, but a client with 1M at Vanguard that wants to invest in bitcoin should be allowed to, possible with a warning. Thanks for your opinion 48 ,...I'm OK with your viewpoint also. I consider vang'd should generally be making funds/etfs available for trading. But...but...I now heard where the SEC is NOT CALLING THESE ETF'S. Rather ETPs...or an Exchange traded product??) like a commodity. Indeed you are not buying underlying companies but rather a commodity like thing that even the SEC does not want to label even a "currency." Anyone hear more about the SEC label of ETP, not ETFs?? R48 |
|
|
|
Post by archer on Jan 14, 2024 18:35:45 GMT
"Product" sums it up pretty well. You can't get much less specific than that. Maybe a new asset class could be labeled ETSP, S for speculative.
|
|
|
|
Post by win1177 on Jan 14, 2024 18:40:31 GMT
From what I read at Twitter, Vanguard not only is not allowing these NEW Bitcoin ETFs, it has stopped trading in the OLDER futures-based crypto ETFs. There was one unusual case - someone had transferred GBTC to Vanguard (and that was allowed), he sold thinking that he will now replace it with a cheaper Bitcoin ETF. But he is now stuck in cash. VG has NO EXCEPTIONS. I think that VG stopped supporting leveraged ETFs a while ago. Many have reported quitting Vanguard. Their complaint is that caution is fine, but VG is just overdoing it with these controls on brokerage accounts. This "conservative posture" of VG I fully support. Crypto in my book is not an asset... Agree with Steady Eddy! IMHO, crypto is WAY too volatile to be an “asset” that one can/ should invest in. Yes, it “might” be more accepted as an asset (over time), and it might also rise in value to be worth a lot more than where it is currently selling at. But it’s too volatile, risky, and too hard to try to determine it’s “intrinsic value” to qualify as an “investment” for the vast majority of investors. I’m not touching it! Its “worth” is only determined by whomever is the next “greater fool” to buy it from you, so until I see it become more “mainstream” and accepted, I’m not touching it. If I want to “blow (waste)” some money, I’ll go buy lottery tickets or go to a casino. Win |
|
|
|
Post by archer on Jan 14, 2024 18:59:31 GMT
Globally it has its place in countries with equally unstable currency.
|
|
|
|
Post by mozart522 on Jan 14, 2024 20:23:16 GMT
"That Vanguard dares to be different and say we are not going to provide a product that could do serious harm to investors in the future, is to be applauded IMO." Well that is really my problem with this. I applaud Vanguard for not starting its own spot BC ETF, but am less sympathetic to a brokerage platform stopping clients from buying other firms ETFs. I was always told ETFs were traded like stocks. What is next? Vanguard deciding what stocks are appropriate. To be clear, I wouldn't own any asset that depends solely on speculation for possible returns, but a client with 1M at Vanguard that wants to invest in bitcoin should be allowed to, possible with a warning. Thanks for your opinion 48 ,...I'm OK with your viewpoint also. I consider vang'd should generally be making funds/etfs available for trading. But...but...I now heard where the SEC is NOT CALLING THESE ETF'S. Rather ETPs...or an Exchange traded product??) like a commodity. Indeed you are not buying underlying companies but rather a commodity like thing that even the SEC does not want to label even a "currency." Anyone hear more about the SEC label of ETP, not ETFs?? R48 ,-Chair%20Gary%20Gensler&text=Today%2C%20the%20Commission%20approved%20the,traded%20product%20(ETP)%20shares. This may be what you are referring to. |
|
|
|
Post by yogibearbull on Jan 14, 2024 20:39:20 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by retiredat48 on Jan 15, 2024 2:57:57 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by anitya on Jan 16, 2024 1:00:00 GMT
Vanguard allows you to trade MSTR, which makes leverage bets on BTC.
|
|
|
|
Post by mozart522 on Jan 16, 2024 12:45:39 GMT
Vanguard allows you to trade MSTR, which makes leverage bets on BTC. MSTR is a stock. I would assume VG allows all tradable stocks. Not sure where you are concluding that MSTR makes leveraged or any bets on bitcoin. The company profile says: "MicroStrategy Inc is a provider of enterprise analytics and mobility software. It offers MicroStrategy Analytics platform that delivers reports and dashboards and enables users to conduct ad hoc analysis and share insights through mobile devices or the Web; MicroStrategy Server, which provides analytical processing and job management. So its products may facilitate someone making leveraged bets, but I can't see where they do it themselves. Am I missing something? Yup, I was missing something LOL. |
|
|
|
Post by yogibearbull on Jan 16, 2024 13:59:51 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by roi2020 on Jan 18, 2024 7:36:54 GMT
|
|
