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Post by rhythmmethod on Oct 3, 2021 17:43:55 GMT
There is a saying, "Don't wrestle with a pig because you both get dirty and the pig enjoys it". Not exactly sure why this comes to mind but thought I'd share. Stay well.
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Post by FD1000 on Oct 3, 2021 18:57:46 GMT
Raq, sorry, you can't convince me. My employer paid into my 401k from his own money, not from other taxpayers. The most I ever got was 4%, 3% about 80% of the time and this is in IT which are in demand jobs. Teachers get much high % than that. That's not all, I never knew about the following: NY calculates the teacher pension based on your highest three consecutive school years of salary earned whenever they occurred in your salary history. So, a teacher can work in the highest paid school district for just 3 years(see link, step 2). Basically, a NY teacher can starts teaching in a small NY town with lower salary and teach the last 3 years prior to retirement at the highest paid district.We all paid for healthcare, it's good chance that Gov/state employees paid less than most employees who worked in the private sector. NY+CA pay much more because they are a socialist states with huge deficits and strong politicians. They know the US Gov will not let them fall, they are too big to fail. So, the easiest solutions are to over spend and let our Gov deal with that later. How to make schoosl better? Competition thru Vouchers can be a good choice. Let's show how CDC is corrupt. CDC is a well financed agency because everybody is scared of diseases and viruses. Their employees get paid as much as the private sector, and I'm talking about $120+K annually for non-managers jobs. I know several who retired after 25 years at age 50+. Up to this point nicely done. Now comes the best part. Just before retirement, this employee talks to his supervisors and they tailor a job requirement that only fits this employee. The employee retires, the CDC must publish this as a vacant job and you think it's a fair opening for everybody to compete? no sir, the only real candidate is the ex-employee. But wait, they now hire this employee as a contractor, paying him/her another 30-50% because this employee it's from another budget with no benefits. Did you get it? this well compensated ex-employee gets a huge pension + health benefits at a great price as a retiree + his new salary is much higher and now he/she makes another million dollar salary in just 6 years. That a win-win-win for the employee but we, the taxpayers, pay it. BTW, CDC could hire a much cheaper employee, but it's corrupt. This is how they run many Gov employments, there is a budget for employees and another for contractors and they play with that. The following is a good model how to run state/Gov business..."In 2019, the Sandy Springs City Council moved to scale back the PPP model, directly hiring 183 contract employees, leaving only 15 outsourced full-time workers by the end of 2019.[17] The city will still outsource a number of services, including the city attorney's office, as well as security, street sweeping and ambulance services.[17] The move is expected to save $2.7 million in the next year and more than $14 million over 5 years.[15][17]"
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Spending
Oct 4, 2021 1:24:15 GMT
via mobile
Post by Chahta on Oct 4, 2021 1:24:15 GMT
Wow. I’ve been gone a few days and missed all the action. My OP was about being motivated to spend and not accumulate in retirement.
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Post by racqueteer on Oct 4, 2021 12:22:37 GMT
Raq, sorry, you can't convince me. No surprise... You addressed NONE of what I posted as rebuttal.
Again, all over the place: CDC, "Government workers", an hypothesized/mythical 'worker' who somehow convinces a district to hire him for only three years (which would mean no benefits would accrue because no tenure), for a position which is SO hard to fill that the district might have to look to only HIM? Have you any even anecdotal evidence that such an anomaly EXISTS? Here, I'll throw you a bone and note that I was RECRUITED (they came to ME; not the other way around) by a higher-paying district for the last eight years of my career. I have straight degrees in chemistry AND physics and am certified by NY in those subjects along with mathematics. Just HOW likely is it that even I could just sign onto a higher-paying district, on MY schedule, for only three years, negotiate full benefits, etc? You're just throwing crap at a wall and hoping something sticks.. AND... that someone lacking FACTS will believe all the stuff you're shoveling.
Now it's "vouchers"... Sure, by all means, let's cut funding FURTHER, force public schools who have the mandate to teach EVERYONE to a achieve a minimum level of competence, to compete(?) against an entity whose mandate may be entirely different, which can hand-pick its students based on their ability/desire to pay, MANDATE all manner of student action: uniforms, code of conduct, race (why not?), religion (wonder how readily Jewish students, for example, would be accepted in some areas of the US even NOW?). Who gets to decide to whom these vouchers will go? Who passes the laws? What is THEIR agenda?
Since you like anecdotes, here's one that is absolutely true:
My local district is better than 50% minority, food stamps, public assistance, youth gangs, etc. Newburgh, NY was once famously labelled the "murder capital of NY". We don't get to 'pick and choose' who to educate and who to throw out. Part our budget for a year (greater than $1,000,000) supports the 'public library' of the city. We FEED a lot of students each day, obviously there are going to be problems with discipline issues. Obviously there are going to be suspensions, etc (and woe betide you if they are seriously skewed racially - no matter that it's maybe the same 8 students over and over again). You would think that all this means that teachers are going to be poor, students flock to private schools, etc; right? Well no, what IS true is that we've maintained high standards and 'elitist' programs in the face of pressure to temporize on them - unlike MANY districts in which there are either NO such classes as 'honors' or in which the classes are 'open enrollment' (no entrance requirements), but in which, the teachers MUST somehow get most/all students to pass. Despite all of this, you STILL can't get a better education anywhere in this area. Kids of millionaires attend class here. Every year, kids are accepted into every name university you can think of - I had 3 who went to MIT. It's commonplace to graduate with a full year of college credits in hand.
The long and short of it, FD, is that you TRULY do not understand the nature of the problems inherent in the pubic schools here. You want quick solutions for complex problems. You want there to be a magic fix which will just turn things around. You want the mandate to suddenly become EXCELLENCE, rather than what it actually IS: basic competence. You want public schools to enforce 'rules' which they have specifically been enjoined NOT to require. You have 'solutions' which will make things worse for the majority (a luxury public schools don't have). You bring up things which have nothing to DO with 'public schools'. If you want to discuss PUBLIC EDUCATION, with FACTS and not supposition, I'd suggest you do some actually study of the subject of education in the US and stick to that topic. And you MIGHT consider responding to what I wrote rather than continue to simply make accusations, suppositions, and promote distractions from the topic. Barring that, it's a waste of time to keep responding to this constantly-changing littany of accusations sans any actual FACTS that are other than anecdotal. There are PLENTY of things I'd change had I the power to DO so, but I'm unwilling to make things worse for most while benefiting a small group.
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Post by FD1000 on Oct 4, 2021 13:20:21 GMT
raq, you like to concentrate on NY teachers in your district, I'm looking at the big picture for all states for ALL state/Gov jobs. The fact is I and several people I know worked in many places around the USA in different state/gov agencies and workplaces. It's not pretty. It's not only 1-2 examples, it's thousands of them. Furthermore, it gets worse, it's not only the lower state/gov jobs, it’s also the higher paying jobs and they cost a huge amount of money over decades. I don't think we, the taxpayers, have to carry the extra burden of pensions + healthcare. The private sector eliminated most of it because it's too expensive, for a good reason. Here is another fact, the US spend more than most on education, but the results are poor. US high school level keep falling. Example: Table M1. Average scores of 15-year-old students on the PISA mathematics literacy scale, by education system: 2018. Attachments:
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Post by Mustang on Oct 4, 2021 14:39:30 GMT
Wow. I’ve been gone a few days and missed all the action. My OP was about being motivated to spend and not accumulate in retirement. It is difficult to break old habits. After decades of saving and watching a portfolio grow it is difficult to watch it dwindle especially when the future is uncertain and the ability to rebuild it is nil.
I think I may have reached that point. I do not see the point of frivolous spending just because one can. The future holds too many uncertainties. The greatest uncertainty is my wife's ability to have a livable income after I am gone. Especially if there are significant nursing home costs before that.
But mostly I think its just hard to break old habits.
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Post by uncleharley on Oct 4, 2021 14:58:36 GMT
Another uncertainty comes with the realization that one might live longer than expected. At age 78 [soon to be 79] i am acutely aware that I have outlived my siblings and the acuary tables. I am still in ralatively good health so I have to consider the idea that I might live to be 100. Many people do. How much will I need to be comfortable for another 20 yrs or so? ?
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Post by racqueteer on Oct 4, 2021 15:14:26 GMT
raq, you like to concentrate on NY teachers in your district, I'm looking at the big picture for all states for ALL state/Gov jobs. The fact is I and several people I know worked in many places around the USA in different state/gov agencies and workplaces. It's not pretty. It's not only 1-2 examples, it's thousands of them. Furthermore, it gets worse, it's not only the lower state/gov jobs, it’s also the higher paying jobs and they cost a huge amount of money over decades. I don't think we, the taxpayers, have to carry the extra burden of pensions + healthcare. The private sector eliminated most of it because it's too expensive, for a good reason. Here is another fact, the US spend more than most on education, but the results are poor. US high school level keep falling. Example: Table M1. Average scores of 15-year-old students on the PISA mathematics literacy scale, by education system: 2018. But YOU, while complaining about 'teachers' specifically; presumably EVERYWHERE in the US, drag in unrelated issues, ignore counter arguments, and insist on pontificating about things with which you have NO experience or knowledge. Yes, I am focusing on the stuff I KNOW about firsthand. I'm not GUESSING; or ignoring inconvenient facts which do not support my OPINION.
AGAIN, you insist on comparing unlike things as if they were the same. Which of these 'superior' nations has a diverse population, a mandate to teach EVERY CHILD (including illegals) in the country to a minimum level, provide food and health to its students (at the expense of funding for educational purposes), MUST accept anyone who comes through the door, is under all kinds of pressure to limit or eliminate practices which MIGHT make things better for most (at the expense of the few), a culture of apathy or even antipathy toward education, and on and on?
And yet AGAIN I ask you: If your premise, that we're 'wasting' money on educators' salaries and benefits is correct, then WHY is it so hard to keep prospective teachers in the profession and be able to attract the very best people into the field in the FIRST place? A REASONABLE person might, as unbelievably as it seems, consider that, just perhaps, their assumptions were (gasp) WRONG! I know that possibility would never occur to YOU though; just as I KNOW you will not really even CONSIDER what I've written here. I'm only continuing, in order to TRY to add some reality and facts to counter your wags.
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Post by racqueteer on Oct 4, 2021 15:21:08 GMT
Wow. I’ve been gone a few days and missed all the action. My OP was about being motivated to spend and not accumulate in retirement. I apologize for my part in sending this off a cliff, but I can't just let let what is being claimed slide without response. I don't usually engage in this kind of back and forth, but I see no way out of it. I'm sure if it becomes too egregious, the moderator(s) will let US know...
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Post by Chahta on Oct 4, 2021 15:40:42 GMT
No problems with anyone redirecting this thread as far as I am concerned.
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Post by FD1000 on Oct 4, 2021 20:19:39 GMT
raq, you like to concentrate on NY teachers in your district, I'm looking at the big picture for all states for ALL state/Gov jobs. The fact is I and several people I know worked in many places around the USA in different state/gov agencies and workplaces. It's not pretty. It's not only 1-2 examples, it's thousands of them. Furthermore, it gets worse, it's not only the lower state/gov jobs, it’s also the higher paying jobs and they cost a huge amount of money over decades. I don't think we, the taxpayers, have to carry the extra burden of pensions + healthcare. The private sector eliminated most of it because it's too expensive, for a good reason. Here is another fact, the US spend more than most on education, but the results are poor. US high school level keep falling. Example: Table M1. Average scores of 15-year-old students on the PISA mathematics literacy scale, by education system: 2018. But YOU, while complaining about 'teachers' specifically; presumably EVERYWHERE in the US, drag in unrelated issues, ignore counter arguments, and insist on pontificating about things with which you have NO experience or knowledge. Yes, I am focusing on the stuff I KNOW about firsthand. I'm not GUESSING; or ignoring inconvenient facts which do not support my OPINION.
AGAIN, you insist on comparing unlike things as if they were the same. Which of these 'superior' nations has a diverse population, a mandate to teach EVERY CHILD (including illegals) in the country to a minimum level, provide food and health to its students (at the expense of funding for educational purposes), MUST accept anyone who comes through the door, is under all kinds of pressure to limit or eliminate practices which MIGHT make things better for most (at the expense of the few), a culture of apathy or even antipathy toward education, and on and on?
And yet AGAIN I ask you: If your premise, that we're 'wasting' money on educators' salaries and benefits is correct, then WHY is it so hard to keep prospective teachers in the profession and be able to attract the very best people into the field in the FIRST place? A REASONABLE person might, as unbelievably as it seems, consider that, just perhaps, their assumptions were (gasp) WRONG! I know that possibility would never occur to YOU though; just as I KNOW you will not really even CONSIDER what I've written here. I'm only continuing, in order to TRY to add some reality and facts to counter your wags.
European countries have diverse population too. While US deals with that as one country, much smaller, and less wealthy European countries had to deal with millions of immigrants/refugees/illegals too by themselves and...still manage to do better with education...and still spend less money per student. You can gasp all you want, the US is trailing among advanced nations in education for many years already. Laziness, inefficiency and overpayment for state/Gov employees is nothing new. Keep talking only about schools, and I will continue talking about everything. Illegal immigration is a political issue. I'm looking at the facts. Why is it hard to attract the best teachers is a complicated subject? I don't think more money can solve the education gap, but that's another subject. If you want to discuss only teachers and education, please open a separate thread.
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Post by racqueteer on Oct 4, 2021 22:57:46 GMT
Why is it hard to attract the best teachers is a complicated subject? I don't think more money can solve the education gap, but that's another subject. If you want to discuss only teachers and education, please open a separate thread. Last comment from me in this thread. I never wanted this discussion in the FIRST place. YOU are the one who insists on attacking teachers. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts. I’ve attempted to correct your “I believe” statements; that’s it. Since you have not really addressed MY statements; I can only assume that you cannot. If you are, in fact, done pontificating about things you don’t fully understand, then I have no need to respond further.
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Post by bb2 on Oct 5, 2021 17:18:28 GMT
Back to the OP intent. Not sure about others but after thinking about it, my spending might seem haphazard and I'm not so frugal after all when it comes to travel. (Except for Hawii, where my favorite place to stay is the Kona Tiki, at 110/night. Though now there's a new owner, remodeled and doubled it. Still a bargain.) I live in the first house I bought; 1100 sq feet. I buy new cars and drive them for 20 years. I clean my own house; (small house is good). Mow my own lawn. My shirts might have tears but they're my favorites and I can't toss them. My clothes hamper is a duct taped cardboard box! But I belong to a golf club. And I might buy first class plane tickets or spend $500/night for a month for a fantastic apartment in the middle of Paris, eat at the the French Laundry or Arpège. (I went kicking and screaming to the FL but can't wait to go back. Arpege is a deal if you're in Paris.) Our yearly boy's camping trip is morphing into a tour of Asia. So I'm hoping people are enjoying themselves where it counts. "You can't take it with you." An aside: My favorite trip down the Grand Canyon was with 18 teachers; great people.
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Post by Karen on Oct 5, 2021 22:51:21 GMT
Why is it hard to attract the best teachers is a complicated subject? I don't think more money can solve the education gap, but that's another subject. If you want to discuss only teachers and education, please open a separate thread. Last comment from me in this thread. I never wanted this discussion in the FIRST place. YOU are the one who insists on attacking teachers. You are entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts. I’ve attempted to correct your “I believe” statements; that’s it. Since you have not really addressed MY statements; I can only assume that you cannot. If you are, in fact, done pontificating about things you don’t fully understand, then I have no need to respond further. Perfect response. I'm not sure how you mustered the strength to discuss this with him this long but hopefully that ends it. As I've shown previously on this thread, he also has no idea how pensions are funded and that significantly affects his adverse opinion on them. The anecdotal stuff takes my husband back to his days in college. He went to an elite business school in a very small town. His Econ 101 prof used to daily try to explain macroeconomic theory by applying anecdotal, microeconomics of the town. "When your parents send you that monthly spending money and you spend it at the local bar, the bar owner then pays the..." After about a month he just stopped listening to him.
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Post by Mustang on Oct 6, 2021 12:11:45 GMT
European countries have diverse population too. While US deals with that as one country, much smaller, and less wealthy European countries had to deal with millions of immigrants/refugees/illegals too by themselves and...still manage to do better with education...and still spend less money per student. You can gasp all you want, the US is trailing among advanced nations in education for many years already. I'm wondering, how much money would European countries have to spend on education and social programs if they had to provide for their own defense?
NATO has a very low target of 2% of GDP for defense spending and most do not even spend that. According to this article there are only ten countries that actually meet the target: Greece 3.8%, the US 3.5%, Croatia 2,8%, UK 2.3%, Latvia 2.3%, Estonia 2.3% Poland 2.1%, Lithuania 2.0%, Romania 2.0%, and France 2.0% Of the 20 countries that do not meet the target these are the ones at the bottom of the list: Luxembourg 0.6%, Spain 1.0% and Belgium 1.1%. www.forces.net/news/world/nato-which-countries-pay-their-share-defence
Before the World Wars the United States had an isolationist policy. After, as the only industrial power not bombed back into the stone age, it emerged as a world leader both militarily and economically. Europe was divided with the eastern half under Soviet dominance. We out spent the Soviets and the cold war ended. The domino effect theory proved accurate as one European country after another transitioned to a democratic system of government. The US still has the world's largest GDP followed by China, Japan, Germany, India, the UK, France and Italy, Brazil, and Canada. www.investopedia.com/insights/worlds-top-economies/
Notice how many NATO countries are in the top 10 for GDP but are unable to meet the NATO defense spending target.
Being a world leader the US has commitments not only on the Atlantic side but also the Pacific side. Because of this the United States spends as much as the next 11 countries combined (April 2021). Its defense spending accounts for 10% of its federal budget and nearly half of its discretionary spending. It's current spending (as a percent of GDP) is at a post-WWII low. During the cold war it typically spend 6-7% of its GDP on defense and it is expected to decline further. www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0232_defense_low_levels
Many in the United States want more social spending and less defense spending. Proposed spending packages are going to challenge the United States' ability to borrow money. I wonder how much our European and Asian allies will have to spend on their social programs when the United States pulls back and they are forced to spend more on defense?
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Post by FD1000 on Oct 6, 2021 13:35:07 GMT
Mustang, you are correct about defense expenses, Trump made is better( link). The US still have one of the highest spending per student, but the results are not good. From my own experience in IT development. I worked with developers from several countries, I was amazed that the Chinese were excellent, eager to learn, pretty happy when I met them but also cheap. Education Rankings By Country 2021. Attachments:
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Post by racqueteer on Oct 6, 2021 15:05:27 GMT
The US still have one of the highest spending per student, but the results are not good. And I ask yet again, what other country has the mandate to teach EVERY student, including illegals, to a MINIMUM level (not to excellence), while feeding them breakfast (and, in many cases) lunch, OUT OF THEIR LIMITED BUDGET? In what other country is the PROCESS entirely out of the hands of the people doing the teaching; while every Tom, Dick, and Harry second guesses their every move (and are qualified to do so because THEY attended school once upon a time)? And finally, how do you expect things to get any better if your sole focus is to REDUCE the available funds? You can't get good people by paying less, 'comparing' things that are not MANDATED to operate in the same way, refusing to allow teachers ANY control over their classrooms, belittle and criticize them at every opportunity, and on and on. I thought you were done posting about this topic; or was that simply an attempt to avoid the unpleasant realities I keep presenting which you refuse to address? No doubt you'll refuse to address them yet AGAIN, but I'll continue to respond to your nonsense so long as you persist on advocating for something which will simply make things worse.
Education in the US is not what I would prefer it to be, but I recognize that, under the current conditions, there is NO easy path to making things 'better'. The mandate would have to change. The salaries/benefits would have to attract TONS of GREAT candidates; so districts could pick and choose. To DO that, the funding needs to come from the state or Federal Governments; not from local taxes. The teachers would have to have control over the curriculum they teach. We won't even get INTO what needs to change in our SOCIETY to make attitudes regarding education more 'productive'. Instead of continuing to complain, why not offer SUGGESTIONS that will actually result in worthwhile change? Hint: "Pay them less" isn't it...
Btw, you've implied that MY commentary is biased... Allow me to point out that I am retired and a taxpayer. I don't look on high taxes as some kind of 'good' thing, but I'd rather have GOOD teachers than poor ones teaching my relatives' kids. Plus, I KNOW where the problems lie; I don't have to make guesses about it; nor expound on things I don't understand. I'd suggest you educate yourself more fully on the issue(s) rather than persist in the same simplistic statements over and over; DESPITE my refuting them OVER and OVER. I can't figure out if you just think I'm lying; or you're one of those people who are willing to ignore what people are saying because, "I know what I know, and no amount of contrary evidence is going to alter my opinion". Just take a minute or two and actually CONSIDER the questions I've asked and the implications if those questions are legitimate. As it is, I don't think you're actually LISTENING to what I've been saying. Are you; or are you simply thinking about what YOU'LL say next in order to 'win'?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2021 15:38:15 GMT
Do not confuse high scores in standardized tests with Education.
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Post by FD1000 on Oct 6, 2021 20:27:18 GMT
There are always excuses. It's a double knockout. The US has one of the highest expense per kid in elementary + secondary and still trails many countries. I look at the facts. Are they correct or not?
When you look for a job, STEM knowledge is extremely important.
The US closes the education gap in university (BA,BS and especially masters). US companies hire the best around the world, if you can't make them you just buy them and later train them. Don't get me wrong, the US is a great country to live in.
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Post by racqueteer on Oct 7, 2021 3:20:30 GMT
There are always excuses. It's a double knockout. The US has one of the highest expense per kid in elementary + secondary and still trails many countries. I look at the facts. Are they correct or not? An explanation is not the same thing as an 'excuse'. You continue to fail to address what I wrote and instead focus on the ONE thing you keep repeating as if that 'proves' something.
Tell me, FD, is a freight train, tractor-trailer, or a panel van a better vehicle for delivering goods? Is it not obvious to you, as it is to any reasonable person, that these things, which ostensibly do the 'same thing', cannot truly be compared to one another? Is that not self-evident to you? They each have different mandates, legal restrictions, economic realities, etc. You can only truly compare things which are ALIKE. To do otherwise is either an indication of ignorance (real or fabricated) or intellectual dishonesty. Why would one be surprised that these disparate things would not behave the same way? Similarly, a community college cannot be expected to behave as an ivy league university might. A hobbled runner (or handicapped one) can not be expected to 'perform' as would a trained athlete in the 100m dash. A 5'8" hs guard is very unlikely to compete successfully against a 6'5" college basketball player in the forward position. These are simply NOT the 'same thing'. Any general 'comparison' is worthless. You can continue to ignore inconvenient facts, pointed out SEVERAL times now, in favor of this preconceived notion you have, but that doesn't make a flawed argument any more valid.
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Post by alvinthechipmunk on Dec 10, 2021 0:32:11 GMT
...Back to the initial post, with the link. That writer thinks like I think. I DO take a chunk each year from the IRA, and so far, for all the years I've been doing it, what I'm taking is all profit from the portfolio. We just moved, which amounts to jumping from the frying pan into the fire. BIG jump in monthly rent. (Not looking to buy in this housing market. Hawaii is NUTS!) Anyhow, I like not to be paying monthly service fees, so we pay car insurance in one slug. We are not panicking after buying furniture, either. We have shown ourselves that we can live decently while servicing the debt. And it's a priority to pay-off that debt QUICKLY. Fortunate to be able to do that. (DO NOT do business with Synchrony bank.) And we can still help out the in-laws, who live in an Asian shit-hole country. They need it.
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Spending
Dec 13, 2021 14:34:55 GMT
via mobile
Post by FD1000 on Dec 13, 2021 14:34:55 GMT
I don't understand why you need to pay extra insurance fees when you pay monthly. I pay monthly all our bills using my 2% cash back credit card. Our insurance isn't higher when we pay monthly. Paying debt quicker isn't always the best option, in fact we buy all our big items using the merchant zero-low finance because we make much more in the market. Actually, we took home equity loan at 1.99% for 5 years and invested it all in bonds and made much more. The above isn't for everyone but when you have enough money to cover your debt several times, pay all your bills in full monthly, buy only things you really need,and know what you are doing,debt isn't bad.
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Post by Chahta on Dec 13, 2021 15:28:22 GMT
I don't understand why you need to pay extra insurance fees when you pay monthly. I pay monthly all our bills using my 2% cash back credit card. Our insurance isn't higher when we pay monthly. Paying debt quicker isn't always the best option, in fact we buy all our big items using the merchant zero-low finance because we make much more in the market. Actually, we took home equity loan at 1.99% for 5 years and invested it all in bonds and made much more. The above isn't for everyone but when you have enough money to cover your debt several times, pay all your bills in full monthly, buy only things you really need,and know what you are doing,debt isn't bad. Most or all insurance companies charge an extra $2-3 for splitting yearly premium into monthly premium payments.
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