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Post by BearMkt on Aug 2, 2021 22:51:36 GMT
Up until a few days ago, our nations leaders said "get the vaccine and you won't have to wear a mask". Of course now there is a complete reversal. Is anyone else having any trouble believing anything they say?
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bf22
Commander
Posts: 135
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Post by bf22 on Aug 2, 2021 22:58:50 GMT
"When the facts change, I change my mind."
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Post by Mustang on Aug 3, 2021 1:39:56 GMT
Up until a few days ago, our nations leaders said "get the vaccine and you won't have to wear a mask". Of course now there is a complete reversal. Is anyone else having any trouble believing anything they say? Yes. After it became political reporting on medical advice became slanted one way or another. According to what I have read the last CDC recommendation was to wear masks inside in high case level areas. If I remember correctly a high case level area is one that has a 7-day average of 50 cases per 100,000 people. Somehow the last half of their recommendation has been left out in most media reports and political comments.
Most masks are not suppose to have a tight enough weave to protect the wearer. Previous advice said that they were worn to protect other people by removing large droplets from coughs and sneezes from the air. Masks and distancing combined was suppose to provide general protection. Distancing inside meant limiting capacity. Limiting capacity was putting many businesses out of business. This time the advice is to just wear masks inside in certain areas.
I personally never thought the number of cases or positive tests was a good metric (but I'm not a doctor). Since the entire reason for the shut down was to prevent hospitals from being overrun (like they were in New York City) I thought a better metric was occupied hospital beds. Rural Indiana never experience the pandemic like New York. Our governor shut down our economy and shut down all medical procedures except emergencies with the expectation of full hospitals. The result was nearly empty hospitals with empty beds and with doctors, nurses and other staff being laid off. Other illnesses took their toll because more routine procedures such as colonoscopies were postponed.
Baton Rouge, Louisiana is currently being hit hard with hospital beds full. We need to pay attention and see what happens. When New York City was hit hard there was no vaccine. States adjacent to Louisiana have some of the lowest vaccination rates. They are now seeing the highest increases in vaccinations. History will not repeat itself. I doubt we will see a repeat of the shut downs. Unless a specific area is hit hard people will not stand for it. A few article I've read suggest that people in other nations will not stand for it either.
Yes. I am skeptical of our national leader's.advice. They are first and foremost politicians. All say they follow the science but it seems they only follow the science that fits their agenda.
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Post by racqueteer on Aug 3, 2021 13:38:49 GMT
Up until a few days ago, our nations leaders said "get the vaccine and you won't have to wear a mask". Of course now there is a complete reversal. Is anyone else having any trouble believing anything they say? I personally never thought the number of cases or positive tests was a good metric (but I'm not a doctor). Since the entire reason for the shut down was to prevent hospitals from being overrun (like they were in New York City) I thought a better metric was occupied hospital beds. Rural Indiana never experience the pandemic like New York. Our governor shut down our economy and shut down all medical procedures except emergencies with the expectation of full hospitals. The result was nearly empty hospitals with empty beds and with doctors, nurses and other staff being laid off. Other illnesses took their toll because more routine procedures such as colonoscopies were postponed.
<snip>
Yes. I am skeptical of our national leader's.advice. They are first and foremost politicians. All say they follow the science but it seems they only follow the science that fits their agenda.
I find myself in agreement with much of this, Mustang. I, too, think that perhaps THE important issue is hospital occupancy figures. I'd add to that, however, the running death toll. I can envision cases where COVID-infected people die outside of hospitals for a variety of reasons, and, of course, it matters little if a virus has a low mortality rate if it infects huge numbers! Anyway, I think we have to be mindful of that as well.
As for trusting politicians; yeah, don't trust them a lot, but I DO think the current one is trying to do the right thing. I don't necessarily agree with the specifics, however. I note that the President doesn't actually CONTROL his party (unless they allow it). Too, both parties seem to come down on the "States Rights" side of the argument. The states are expected to decide their own fate. Unfortunately, some states seem to choose utter idiots as 'leaders', but that's hardly unusual.
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Post by richardsok on Aug 3, 2021 14:06:37 GMT
There are a dozen issues on which I no longer believe anything out of Wash. or the mainstream press; I gave up watching Big 3 evening news years ago. But when it comes to the Wuhan Plague, it's usually not so much unbelief as the conviction no one really knows what to do; the "experts" are uncertainly groping in the dark. It's childish for the GOP to cry ,"Yeah but YOU said...." if new mandates seem warranted. But what would you expect after three years of leftist lying about Russian collusion and two impeachments?
New mutations appear to make existing vaccines less efficacious, which isn't so surprising. They come out with new flu vaccine every year in a guesstimate which might work best in the coming months.
I'd be more willing to give the ruling class (Left and Right) a pass on their bumbling efforts to deal with covid if they weren't such grasping, corrupt, manipulative liars in so many other areas. I feel confident the researchers will come up with better vaccines soon. So far as I understand, the only robust protection is to have had the Covid before.
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Post by Chahta on Aug 3, 2021 14:36:33 GMT
Up until a few days ago, our nations leaders said "get the vaccine and you won't have to wear a mask". Of course now there is a complete reversal. Is anyone else having any trouble believing anything they say? Yes I have a hard time believing much of what is said and done. Sounds like they are throwing their hands up without much else to do. It demonstrates how complicated this virus is and how little it is understood. The Delta variant is complicating things. I read today that 20% of new cases are in the under 12 year old group, who does not have a vaccine yet. They will insure COVID is around for a long time. Their total commitment to fighting COVID is lacking for several reasons.
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Post by bb2 on Aug 3, 2021 16:43:41 GMT
Best mask setup I've found and most effective: N95, (3M from Home Depot), with an exhaust port with a second, cloth mask worn over the top. That way you're not necessarily being a jerk not caring about other's well being.
Variants aren't done; it's what a virus does. (Edit: What all living things do.) Hopefully the next one won't be worse.
Far as the news and politicians, we've always had to read between the lines. Nothing new there.
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Post by anitya on Aug 3, 2021 17:57:09 GMT
bb2, Was not following this thread but noticed your N95 mention. Why wear a cloth on top of N95? If you are inclined to wear both, I would think wearing the cloth first and N95 on top is better - then you do not need to replace N95 as often and can wash the cloth mask more often. I have never used N95 but probably should. A
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Post by steelpony10 on Aug 3, 2021 19:09:46 GMT
Up until a few days ago, our nations leaders said "get the vaccine and you won't have to wear a mask". Of course now there is a complete reversal. Is anyone else having any trouble believing anything they say? No trouble at all. Governments are largely made up of lay people not scientists. They are a poor source of information. Like investing you should look past the non professionals and check actual sources that should know the scoop better then you, professionals in the field. Science has been working on this class virus since SARS in 2005 but stopped when it faded. Pfizer and Moderna are using a new technique based on past research. Being an emergency situation foregoing the 5 year study real life data is still rolling in. My source is a childhood friend who had a high profile job at Pfizer before he retired from their headquarters in California. La Jolla I believe. Maybe it’s not widely known yet but Germany is going to offer a booster shot this fall. Look for the same in the U.S. some day here maybe as long as it’s a threat. It may be added to an annual flu shot which is being studied. Masks prevent you from passing on a loading dose. If you breath through the sides of a mask you can get small doses. How much is enough to affect you no one knows but it’s evident now you can be a carrier and pass a dose on. Social distancing of course cuts the odds of this happening to you or others. Personally although being vaccinated I’ll be back wearing a mask indoors when crowds of strangers are present from October-March with this temperature sensitive virus. I just follow the science which seems clear cut to me.
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Post by FD1000 on Aug 3, 2021 19:26:47 GMT
It's sad when CDC, the leading global leading infection institution lost their credibility and becoming political.
Please make the following change.
CDC=the Center for Doubt and Confusion.
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Post by bb2 on Aug 3, 2021 20:22:59 GMT
Anitya;
The particular N95 has an exhaust port so your exhalations pass through the port into other people's space. So, the cloth mask over the top does decrease the effectiveness of the exhale port but not entirely and it catches some gunk, protecting others to a degree. It also hides the fact you're wearing a mask with an exhale port, which really is a bit inconsiderate, as you're only protecting yourself.
The combination is at least as good as a single cloth mask as far as protecting others, I'm guessing/hoping.
A cloth mask under the N95 would ruin the tight fit of the N95 mask.
The exhaust port really works well in terms of your comfort.
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Post by anitya on Aug 3, 2021 22:00:00 GMT
Anitya; The particular N95 has an exhaust port so your exhalations pass through the port into other people's space. So, the cloth mask over the top does decrease the effectiveness of the exhale port but not entirely and it catches some gunk, protecting others to a degree. It also hides the fact you're wearing a mask with an exhale port, which really is a bit inconsiderate, as you're only protecting yourself. The combination is at least as good as a single cloth mask as far as protecting others, I'm guessing/hoping. A cloth mask under the N95 would ruin the tight fit of the N95 mask. The exhaust port really works well in terms of your comfort. Got it. Makes sense. Thanks. I use a regular mask on my hikes but recently noticed there are some runners going both ways on the narrow trail. They obviously do not wear a mask. I am trying to figure out how I should change my behavior to reduce risk. I tried to double mask and I could not hike - i.e., air intake was not sufficient for physical exertion. Compared to a regular mask how much more difficult it is to breath in thru an N95?
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Post by bb2 on Aug 4, 2021 0:35:49 GMT
I hike on trails too and I don't worry much. I mask up when passing and try to get off the trail to make room for oncoming folk. Not a busy place, where I go. Always sort of considered those efforts to be more theatre than actually necessary. With delta though, maybe it is necessary. Not sure at this point. I don't double mask outside.
My area has mask mandates now; inside.
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Post by retiredat48 on Aug 4, 2021 2:20:40 GMT
During the 2020 period through June, Dr Fauci made four key decisions...all wrong. I went against him on three, to my advantage. The fourth and last decision, I went with him and it cost me thousands in lost opportunity.
One early-on bad decision of his was, along with the WHO, stating masks were unnecessary and not needed. This did not make sense to me, given all of China wearing masks, so I dug out my construction masks and wore them starting February.
Then Dr, Scott Gottleib (cnbc daily) inadvertently on TV named a source supplier of N95 masks where he got his. I immediately ordered/bought some...min qty was 20 at $6 each. I gave away many to others. But I have used an N95 since March 2020. Later, N95 masks seemed impossible to get.
Breathing a little difficult with them.
Fauci months later stated he didn't recommend masks early on because the USA did not have them, and could cause panic. Very disingenuous to me for a doctor and Covid leader. Many people could have made masks at home quickly. Many did...later.
R48
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Post by FD1000 on Aug 4, 2021 3:51:04 GMT
Former Biden COVID adviser says cloth masks ineffective, suggests Americans start wearing N-95 masks( www.foxnews.com/media/biden-covid-adviser-americans-need-to-wear-n95-masks) Yet Osterholm isn't the only Biden adviser to have admitted that cloth masks do little to stop the spread of the coronavirus. In one of his thousands of emails unearthed by the Washington Post and BuzzFeed News via Freedom of Information Act requests, White House medical adviser Dr. Anthony Fauci advised that the "typical mask" one gets from the drug store "is not really effective in keeping out" the virus. "Masks are really for infected people to prevent them from spreading infection to people who are not infected rather than protecting uninfected people from acquiring infection. The typical mask you buy in the drug store is not really effective in keeping out virus, which is small enough to pass through the material," Fauci wrote in one of the emails obtained by BuzzFeed News. "It might, however, provide some slight benefit in keep out gross droplets if someone coughs or sneezes on you. I do not recommend that you wear a mask, particularly since you are going to a vey (sic) low risk location." Wow, I thought most masks, not N95, are effective in keeping out the virus, BUT IT'S NOT.
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Post by javajoe on Aug 4, 2021 15:56:39 GMT
I think you may be misreading that quote FD1000 . I read that use of the word "out" as wearing a mask yourself does not keep the virus "out" from you... eg, it doesn't prevent the virus from coming into you. All my physician friends say a cloth mask is far inferior to an N95, but the main point of both is that they prevent high concentrations of airborne viral load from going out and infecting others. "My mask protects you, your mask protects me."
This is a chart that shows the potential impact of Delta variant here in the midwest. This is my relatively affluent, well-educated county in a large city with hundreds of thousands of residents, 62% of which are fully vaccinated. You can see the recent spike upward (90% delta) is just as strong as the fall surge, when no one was vaccinated. Severity is not represented here but remember these are only cases where people had obvious enough symptoms to actually go get tested.
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Post by Chahta on Aug 4, 2021 16:06:08 GMT
They give out free phones, free food, free money. Why not give out the correct mask?
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Post by FD1000 on Aug 4, 2021 16:14:59 GMT
I think you may be misreading that quote FD1000 . I read that use of the word "out" as wearing a mask yourself does not keep the virus "out" from you... eg, it doesn't prevent the virus from coming into you. All my physician friends say a cloth mask is far inferior to an N95, but the main point of both is that they prevent high concentrations of airborne viral load from going out and infecting others. I think I read it right. I'm talking about the masks most people use, which are paper and cloth. Ask your MD friends, if an infected person wears a cloth mask and cough or sneeze, how much others are really protected? I say, better than nothing, but still very little. I thought the protection was high.
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Post by javajoe on Aug 4, 2021 16:41:28 GMT
It's emerging that the original alpha strain of the virus had an R0 factor that was still relatively high, but nothing like the new Delta variant which is not necessarily more severe but has an R0 factor closer to chickenpox. So I agree that a cloth mask is likely to do very little if you had a group of kids hanging out in cloth masks (half down below their nose) and one of the kids was infected with chicken pox. This is part of the problem for policy makers right now... the virus is changing, the science is evolving, the overall communication has been extremely poor/muddled/inconsistent, and almost everyone views the latest news through their pre-established worldview and not via an open mind.
Case in point... my healthy, active, intelligent, well-educated father with multiple advanced degrees just had a fever for 22 days straight with multiple trips to urgent care, and when asked if he wished he would have been vaccinated he said no. That is our challenge as a society.
-JavaJoe
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Post by Capital on Aug 4, 2021 16:50:25 GMT
They give out free phones, free food, free money. Why not give out the correct mask? Chahta Congress would never be able to agree on which one was the "correct mask" Let's just leave that one up to the people. Maybe give a refundable tax credit on our Form 1040s for the cost
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Post by retiredat48 on Aug 4, 2021 18:38:57 GMT
The most interesting "science fact" is the percent of the entire population who has antibodies, either from vaccines or from previously catching Covid.
You can test for this partly via random selection and testing for antibodies. NY did this in the early days of last year, and surprisingly showed 20% of New Yorkers were shown to have antibodies to Covid...before vaccinations were even out. Such ongoing studies in UK show a very high percentage...like 85+%, already have antibodies...thus the basis for fully opening up their society.
My understanding is the CDC will not do this random statistical testing. Reasons?? BTW if you are familiar with statistics, it doesn't take many tests to closely characterize an entire society.
Science says the uSA is approaching a very high percentage who have anti-bodies. To the extent one may catch a second virus from Delta, not yet fully known.
Thus this latest rise may be very short-lived. I give it two weeks to peak, as most likely scenario. Again my best source is Dr Gottleib, who states Delta should peak in about 12 days. And this is based on the UK and India rise-to-peaking experience.
R48
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Post by Mustang on Aug 4, 2021 21:34:19 GMT
I think you may be misreading that quote FD1000 . I read that use of the word "out" as wearing a mask yourself does not keep the virus "out" from you... eg, it doesn't prevent the virus from coming into you. All my physician friends say a cloth mask is far inferior to an N95, but the main point of both is that they prevent high concentrations of airborne viral load from going out and infecting others. "My mask protects you, your mask protects me."
This is a chart that shows the potential impact of Delta variant here in the Midwest. This is my relatively affluent, well-educated county in a large city with hundreds of thousands of residents, 62% of which are fully vaccinated. You can see the recent spike upward (90% delta) is just as strong as the fall surge, when no one was vaccinated. Severity is not represented here but remember these are only cases where people had obvious enough symptoms to actually go get tested.
As I said before I'm not sure testing positive is a good metric. Few people with antibodies (either through shots or from having it) get seriously ill and treatments are a lot better. I typically go here for information concerning my state which is dead center in the Midwest. www.coronavirus.in.gov/
For positive cases and deaths they report a 7-day moving average. At the peak of the pandemic in December positive cases hit 6,900 (12/6) and deaths peaked at 107 (12/14). The greatest number hospitalized at one time was 3,460 (11/30). The vaccines became available. Better treatments of the sick were also developed. It appeared the pandemic was under control. Positive cases bottomed out in July at 148 (7/5) and deaths bottomed out at 2 (7/20). Total hospitalized dropped to 371 (7/3). The delta variant has hit the state. 87.2% of the positive test results are the delta variant. We almost have a 50% vaccination rate. I've read that 15-25% of the un-vaccinated have natural immunity.
As of last report the 7-day average for cases was 1600, for deaths it was 6 and total hospitalizations were 985. These numbers are a far cry from last December, a 7-day average of 6 deaths vs. 107. We need to stay vigilant but I don't see any reason for panic or shutting down the economy.
This is why one-size fits all policies issued by the federal government have unforeseen consequences. The United States is a continent sized country. Louisiana is having a problem right now. They may have to implement policies that would make absolutely no sense here.
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Post by steelpony10 on Aug 5, 2021 18:57:28 GMT
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Post by johntaylor on Aug 5, 2021 20:33:07 GMT
Was the top-down authoritarianism of lockdowns and mandates the best approach?
As WW II loomed, FDR, Baruch, Knudsen, Kaiser and others sought to meet the enormous demand for tanks, planes, ships, and guns by looking to the innovation and energy of America
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Post by javajoe on Aug 5, 2021 21:55:06 GMT
I love the Onion! I've been a fan since the early print days coming out of UW Madison. One of my neighbors actually writes a lot of their "News in Brief" and she is as dry/satirical and funny as they come. It's unfortunate that actual news these days is insane enough that I'll see something on social media and think it's from the Onion but it's actually happening in Washington!
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Post by steelpony10 on Aug 6, 2021 0:05:48 GMT
javajoe, It’s all starting to blend together. Check out Guts Frisbee. I did a double take when I saw the picture and had to read the article. Spoiler alert, it’s a real sport.
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Post by BearMkt on Aug 6, 2021 0:33:02 GMT
I think you may be misreading that quote FD1000 . I read that use of the word "out" as wearing a mask yourself does not keep the virus "out" from you... eg, it doesn't prevent the virus from coming into you. All my physician friends say a cloth mask is far inferior to an N95, but the main point of both is that they prevent high concentrations of airborne viral load from going out and infecting others. "My mask protects you, your mask protects me."
This is a chart that shows the potential impact of Delta variant here in the Midwest. This is my relatively affluent, well-educated county in a large city with hundreds of thousands of residents, 62% of which are fully vaccinated. You can see the recent spike upward (90% delta) is just as strong as the fall surge, when no one was vaccinated. Severity is not represented here but remember these are only cases where people had obvious enough symptoms to actually go get tested.
As I said before I'm not sure testing positive is a good metric. Few people with antibodies (either through shots or from having it) get seriously ill and treatments are a lot better. I typically go here for information concerning my state which is dead center in the Midwest. www.coronavirus.in.gov/
For positive cases and deaths they report a 7-day moving average. At the peak of the pandemic in December positive cases hit 6,900 (12/6) and deaths peaked at 107 (12/14). The greatest number hospitalized at one time was 3,460 (11/30). The vaccines became available. Better treatments of the sick were also developed. It appeared the pandemic was under control. Positive cases bottomed out in July at 148 (7/5) and deaths bottomed out at 2 (7/20). Total hospitalized dropped to 371 (7/3). The delta variant has hit the state. 87.2% of the positive test results are the delta variant. We almost have a 50% vaccination rate. I've read that 15-25% of the un-vaccinated have natural immunity.
As of last report the 7-day average for cases was 1600, for deaths it was 6 and total hospitalizations were 985. These numbers are a far cry from last December, a 7-day average of 6 deaths vs. 107. We need to stay vigilant but I don't see any reason for panic or shutting down the economy.
This is why one-size fits all policies issued by the federal government have unforeseen consequences. The United States is a continent sized country. Louisiana is having a problem right now. They may have to implement policies that would make absolutely no sense here.
I heard a couple of frontline doctors stating their belief that the vaccine may actually contribute to the mutations of the virus. They were clearly advocating "heard immunity" approach along with treatment options, as the best way out of it. I've had the virus, have been vaccinated, and know MANY others who had the virus, AND got vaccinated. We all wore masks for many months in public. I think we've paid our dues.
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