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Post by johntaylor on Jul 3, 2023 13:45:47 GMT
In 1782, Congress used "E Pluribus Unum" as the motto, but modern America seems to be losing unity and sovereignty (France too?)
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Post by Chahta on Jul 3, 2023 21:53:14 GMT
Import third world. Become third world. I don't know of any time in history when a ruling class set about the deliberate decay of its own religion, culture and society. The arrogance to think that western-hating immigrants can be pacified and controlled is breathtaking. Historians will long study how Western Europe and North America became unique in their social death wish as immigrant numbers soared and birth rates plummeted. Already Europe's churches are empty and their mosques are full. During our most recent Euro vacation my wife and I happened to spend a Sunday evening strolling through downtown Vienna. I could have thought we were in Teheran. ----- News Item: "Muhammad top baby name for fifth year running in UK" (TRT Turkish Broadcast Service) News Item: "May 9, 2023 — Mohammed ranked as the most popular name for baby boys in Berlin in 2022, according to a report by German news outlet Tagesspiegel." --------- Wouldn't it be ironic if eastern Europe, including well-detested Hungary, Belarus and Russia, became the last bastions of religious freedoms? I could go on, but to little point. Apres moi.... and all that. I agree 100%. It is truly sad to see countries ruined in the name of stupidity. It is happening here due to blindness. |
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Post by fred495 on Jul 4, 2023 16:20:43 GMT
Import third world. Become third world. I don't know of any time in history when a ruling class set about the deliberate decay of its own religion, culture and society. The arrogance to think that western-hating immigrants can be pacified and controlled is breathtaking. Historians will long study how Western Europe and North America became unique in their social death wish as immigrant numbers soared and birth rates plummeted. Already Europe's churches are empty and their mosques are full. During our most recent Euro vacation my wife and I happened to spend a Sunday evening strolling through downtown Vienna. I could have thought we were in Teheran. ----- News Item: "Muhammad top baby name for fifth year running in UK" (TRT Turkish Broadcast Service) News Item: "May 9, 2023 — Mohammed ranked as the most popular name for baby boys in Berlin in 2022, according to a report by German news outlet Tagesspiegel." --------- Wouldn't it be ironic if eastern Europe, including well-detested Hungary, Belarus and Russia, became the last bastions of religious freedoms? I could go on, but to little point. Apres moi.... and all that. I agree 100%. It is truly sad to see countries ruined in the name of stupidity. It is happening here due to blindness.
Sorry, Chahta, but I don't understand what you mean by "It is happening here due to blindness." in the context of "Riots in Paris", the subject of this thread.
I am not familiar of immigrants, legal or illegal, rioting in the US. While I certainly don't support illegal immigration, it seems to me that the US, unlike France, has done a much better job of assimilating most of its immigrants, certainly by the third generation.
So, what am I missing?
Fred
P.S. While I don't live in the Southwest, I tend to agree with, axe, another poster who said: "Living in the Southwest USA, my experience with a significant Hispanic population is a very positive one. Attorney, Financial Analyst, Engineer etc, all friends and respected Americans. In this era of highly mobile populations we are fortunate to Mexico to the south. I do wish it was more controlled. My parents were Canadian immigrants and my wife's parent were from Czechoslovakia."
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Post by django on Jul 4, 2023 16:58:02 GMT
The Minneapolis City Council just passed permission for mosques to broadcast the Muslim call to prayer 5 times daily, starting at sunrise. My feeling is that imposes a religious ritual on everyone. I find that concerning.
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Post by Norbert on Jul 4, 2023 18:04:53 GMT
fred495"I am not familiar of immigrants, legal or illegal, rioting in the US. While I certainly don't support illegal immigration, it seems to me that the US, unlike France, has done a much better job of assimilating most of its immigrants, certainly by the third generation. So, what am I missing?" ----- Immigration has clearly been a big positive for the US. What's the US doing differently than France? 1) Different immigrants! The large majority of immigrants to the US believe in America and want to assimilate. That's not the case in France. 2) France is a statist nation, with centralized government control of many aspects of life. Although France offers free healthcare and universities, upward mobility is challenging. In the US there's a conviction that the sky's the limit for ambitious individuals; less so in France.
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Post by archer on Jul 4, 2023 18:40:08 GMT
The Minneapolis City Council just passed permission for mosques to broadcast the Muslim call to prayer 5 times daily, starting at sunrise. My feeling is that imposes a religious ritual on everyone. I find that concerning. Kind of like church bells, but more often. |
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Post by bb2 on Jul 4, 2023 19:53:45 GMT
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Post by steadyeddy on Jul 5, 2023 0:08:11 GMT
The Minneapolis City Council just passed permission for mosques to broadcast the Muslim call to prayer 5 times daily, starting at sunrise. My feeling is that imposes a religious ritual on everyone. I find that concerning. In India, mosques play the prayers through a loud PA system that wakes up all the neighbors in the surrounding areas. I hope it is not that bad in Minneapolis. |
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Post by steadyeddy on Jul 5, 2023 0:09:23 GMT
The Minneapolis City Council just passed permission for mosques to broadcast the Muslim call to prayer 5 times daily, starting at sunrise. My feeling is that imposes a religious ritual on everyone. I find that concerning. Kind of like church bells, but more often. Church bells have no language - but islamic prayers are in Arabic that only some understand. |
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Post by Chahta on Jul 5, 2023 0:30:40 GMT
The Minneapolis City Council just passed permission for mosques to broadcast the Muslim call to prayer 5 times daily, starting at sunrise. My feeling is that imposes a religious ritual on everyone. I find that concerning. It is concerning. Blindness. |
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Post by steadyeddy on Jul 5, 2023 1:15:36 GMT
The Minneapolis City Council just passed permission for mosques to broadcast the Muslim call to prayer 5 times daily, starting at sunrise. My feeling is that imposes a religious ritual on everyone. I find that concerning. It is concerning. Blindness. MN may turnout to the be the France of USA, with its high muslin population. |
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Post by Chahta on Jul 5, 2023 1:17:59 GMT
It is concerning. Blindness. MN may turnout to the be the France of USA, with its high muslin population. We could be wading into political territory. But there are many concerning things going on in MN. |
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Post by richardsok on Jul 5, 2023 4:09:54 GMT
The Minneapolis City Council just passed permission for mosques to broadcast the Muslim call to prayer 5 times daily, starting at sunrise. My feeling is that imposes a religious ritual on everyone. I find that concerning. Oh, I don't. I say let metro Minneapolis feel the full effect what their political leaders, Lutheran Social Services and Unitarians have wrought. The city has 425000 population, metro area about 3 million and 200,000 Islamists. I'm hoping for massive minarets and high power public address amplifiers -- calling 'em ALL to prayer -- 5x daily. They voted for it; let 'em have it -- and be an object lesson for the country. |
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Post by chang on Jul 5, 2023 6:14:17 GMT
This thread was about the riots in France, not Muslims in Minneapolis. I generally like reasonable digressions in threads when they lead to interesting discussions, but this is heading into OT politics. Please steer clear of that.
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Post by Norbert on Jul 5, 2023 8:06:25 GMT
I note that €200,000 has been donated in France to support the family of the dead Arab boy, but that over €1,000,000 has been donated to support the policeman who shot him.
Major upcoming sports events in Paris include the Rugby World Cup this Fall and the Olympics in 2024. The police will have their hands full making sure things go smoothly.
It's important to note that Paris itself was hardly touched by the riots; as posted above, I saw nothing. It's the suburbs that were affected. The press often fails to report accurately, witness Chang's original post.
The French have their eyes open now, but Islam remains a major challenge because it stands apart from France's laws. It's for a very good reason that China does not tolerate Islam within its borders, regardless of how well-intentioned human rights activists may view the situation.
Perhaps the Muslim communities are not so different than the Haredi community in Israel, where 50% of the men don't participate in the workforce or the IDF; where Haredi kids focus on religious studies instead of science & math? Don't know.
N.
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Post by chang on Jul 5, 2023 8:33:17 GMT
I haven't really followed the details of the original shooting or the subsequent riots; too many other things occupying my time right now. My wife told me that the teenage driver of the car was speeding (or some other traffic violation), and tried to evade the police. Apparently when they police got him to stop, he tried again to flee in the vehicle, and that's when he was shot.
Obviously a fatality was tragic and not to anyone's benefit. But I can imagine that the police might have been concerned about a potential danger to other drivers or pedestrians. Also, I would wager that race had nothing to do with it.
My view on the myriad police conflicts (of which we have had so many in the US) has always been very simple: whatever a police officer tells you to do, you do it. If a mistake has been made, you can clear it up later in front of a judge. A policeman is doing a dangerous job and has no idea who you are or what harm you might do. Provoking the police seems to me to be about the stupidest thing a human being could do. I could care less what legal rights you have, what injustices have or may have taken place in the past, or who is right and who is wrong. You just do whatever they tell you to do; there will be a better time and place to tell your side of the story. Hence, I have vanishingly little sympathy for people who ignore police warnings; sorry but I think these people are Darwin Prize candidates.
Apologies if my wife's version of events is incorrect, I didn't check them out.
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Post by Norbert on Jul 5, 2023 9:55:06 GMT
Your version of events is correct, although incomplete. The driver was also driving a stolen car, had fake plates (Polish, I think), and had just run a red light, narrowly missing pedestrians, while trying to escape the police.
The policeman had a duty to protect the public. He warned the Arab guy and finally opened fire when he tried to drive away again. Of course, the Arab street ignores the guy's behavior while condemning the police as "racist" ... which is the story that the media often tells. There's huge support here for the cop by the police force and by the public. The politicians are mostly keeping quiet so as not to further provoke the street. I consider that to be a mistake.
The misleading reporting I referred to was about the situation in Paris. It's basically been reported that Paris is in flames, while in truth I wouldn't know about any riots if I hadn't read about them on the Internet.
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Post by bb2 on Jul 5, 2023 19:44:12 GMT
Young men, I was one, are often jerks. Cops can be jerks. One of each in the same place can be a problem. I was driving in the Sierra, years ago, when the snow ran out and my tire chains were causing severe vibration so I stopped to take them off, even though the chains required signs were still out. Not one mile after removing the chians, a cop stopped me to give me a ticket for not having chains on. I said, "But there's no snow.". He said, "I don't care." 'and gave me a ticket. I came "this close" to taking him on, which I could have done but still not a good idea. Racist politics has clouded these facts about when two jerks meet.
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Post by johntaylor on Jul 9, 2023 18:05:36 GMT
Macron took the bold step of going to an Elton John concert...
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Post by Norbert on Jul 9, 2023 19:03:37 GMT
Macron took the bold step of going to an Elton John concert... I don't think it matters what Macron does. The Muslim rioters hate France and the secular nation that it is. It's the same as with the Palestinian terrorists: they pretend to be "victims". If you're nice to them, they just feel encouraged. The only solution is containment, by any means necessary. Macron finally called in a tough anti-terrorist squad, which employs rubber bullets. That's a step in the right direction. |
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Post by archer on Jul 9, 2023 21:22:23 GMT
Hatred based on religious beliefs has always seemed a bit ironic to me given the rarity of religions in their authentic form supporting hatred. But, I know in practice is is pretty common.
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Post by richardsok on Jul 10, 2023 1:03:35 GMT
I sympathize, jovan. I really do. As far back as the 1970s I was making enemies by arguing the US should be more even-handed with Israel vs Palestinians. "Why,' I asked " does every new Israel problem automatically become a U.S. problem too?" My opinions altered somewhat when I saw film clips of Palestinians dancing in the streets after 9/11. My attitude about the Middle East today: it's a shame EVERYONE can't lose.
But cultural erosion in western Europe is an entirely different issue. We KNOW again and again from history that an angry and determined minority can overthrow an established order, especially if the government is feckless and indecisive. Mao did it. Castro. Bolsheviks, Bolivar, early Nazi Party, Gandhi, Khomeini. Even in 1775 only a relatively small number of colonialists sought rupture with Britain. When something is INTENSELY important to a determined minority and the majority is confused or fearful or indifferent, that minority CAN win. You can NOT claim young muslim men in western cities (or almost anywhere!) seek a "live and let live" accommodation with their Christian neighbors. They want to milk the system today, use the socialist generosity and tolerance for their own benefit -- and eventually dominate large parts of it. Already "no-go zones" are a fact of life in many European cities.
"Can't we all just get along?" is what the hand-wringing LOSERS plead.
And so you see the difference between Christian/secular Europeans and Israelis.
The Jews, with their recent history always in mind, are determined to thrive and survive -- and they fight back.
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Post by chang on Jul 10, 2023 5:12:44 GMT
Gentlemen, let’s not start a discussion of the Middle East conflict. That wouldn’t even last as long as the ETFMG Breakwave Sea Decarbonization Tech ETF (BSEA).
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Post by Chahta on Jul 10, 2023 8:33:22 GMT
Unfortunately it is hard to separate the two things. The root cause is basic to the West vs. East cultures and especially religion. Judeo/Christian countries were never set up to operate like muslim countries. That is the unspoken genesis of the riots. Why is rioting any different from the West Bank to Paris?
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Post by Norbert on Jul 10, 2023 11:26:20 GMT
It's a frustrating situation; yes, several parallels between the Palestinians and the young French Muslim men.
Israel offered the Palestinians a state with capital in Jerusalem at Camp David with President Clinton. Arafat refused because the offer didn't include the right of return to Israel.
Next the Palestinians launched their murderous Intifada, killing over 1000 Israelis.
Israel withdrew from Gaza. The Palestinians could have built a Dubai-like region wuth European financing, but decided to build tunnels and rockets instead.
Like the French Muslims, the Palestinians passed up every opportunity in favor of violence.
If Israel allowed a Palestinian state, things would probably turn out like in Gaza. That would be suicidal for Israel.
In France people have realized that the situation with the Muslim rioters is hopeless. Now it's all about containment, like in Israel.
It's a shame. I'm fully aware that many Palestinians and French Muslims want to live happy, normal lives. But, the Islamists wreck everything. They don't want to live alongside other peoples, in peace and prosperity, within a secular nation.
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Post by gman57 on Jul 10, 2023 17:49:31 GMT
International relations... what fun. I've been thinking lately of the Taiwan Strait. It's about 100 miles between China and Taiwan and we sail our warships through those international waters. It's about 90 miles between Cuba and the USA. How are we going to react when China sails their warships between Cuba and Florida. The uproar will be immense I'm sure. Sometimes I wish we would look in the mirror and see how we'd react to the same type situation at home.
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Post by racqueteer on Jul 10, 2023 19:10:38 GMT
International relations... what fun. I've been thinking lately of the Taiwan Strait. It's about 100 miles between China and Taiwan and we sail our warships through those international waters. It's about 90 miles between Cuba and the USA. How are we going to react when China sails their warships between Cuba and Florida. The uproar will be immense I'm sure. Sometimes I wish we would look in the mirror and see how we'd react to the same type situation at home. Your point is well-taken, but there are some obvious differences involved. WE have a stake in keeping Taiwan independent, and China is actively indicating its intentions to absorb it. To my knowledge, there is no parallel between that and our relationship with Cuba. We’re probably the only thing keeping Taiwan out of China’s hands (for now). Our actions do not seem provocative per se, whereas China’s would serve no other purpose. |
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Post by racqueteer on Jul 10, 2023 19:27:29 GMT
Regarding the Isreali-Palestinian history, am I remembering incorrectly that the land ‘belonged’ to Great Britain and not “the Palestinians” before all of this? And am I also correct in saying that the land involved was given EQUALLY to the two factions, but the surrounding Arab states simply TOOK the Palestinian share and essentially told them to take the Israeli territory or pound salt instead? To my way of thinking, aside from the chaos that has ALWAYS ensued when land changes hands, the seeds of this ongoing conflict were generated by the established Arab states of the time. If the Palestinians should hate someone, their so-called ‘brothers’ are more deserving of their enmity. Imo only, and worth precisely what you’re paying for it.
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Post by Chahta on Jul 10, 2023 20:15:00 GMT
International relations... what fun. I've been thinking lately of the Taiwan Strait. It's about 100 miles between China and Taiwan and we sail our warships through those international waters. It's about 90 miles between Cuba and the USA. How are we going to react when China sails their warships between Cuba and Florida. The uproar will be immense I'm sure. Sometimes I wish we would look in the mirror and see how we'd react to the same type situation at home. I will remind you so you will know how we would react, because we have before. When Russia put missiles in Cuba circa 1960 we negotiated them away by removing ours from Turkey. |
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Post by Norbert on Jul 11, 2023 7:25:41 GMT
Regarding the Isreali-Palestinian history, am I remembering incorrectly that the land ‘belonged’ to Great Britain and not “the Palestinians” before all of this? And am I also correct in saying that the land involved was given EQUALLY to the two factions, but the surrounding Arab states simply TOOK the Palestinian share and essentially told them to take the Israeli territory or pound salt instead? To my way of thinking, aside from the chaos that has ALWAYS ensued when land changes hands, the seeds of this ongoing conflict were generated by the established Arab states of the time. If the Palestinians should hate someone, their so-called ‘brothers’ are more deserving of their enmity. Imo only, and worth precisely what you’re paying for it. No direct link to our discussion of France, but here's my quick summary of 20th Century Israeli-Palestinian history ...
- "Palestine" was the popular name for a western region in the Ottoman Empire, which ruled the area from the 16th Century until defeat in WW I. Both Muslims and Jews inhabited the area continuously.
- The British Mandate for Palestine ran from 1918 to 1948, until the founding of Israel.
- Jewish immigration into the area increased during the 1920s and 1930s, as pogroms and prejudice made life dangerous for European Jews. The Hebron massacre of Jews by Muslims occurred in 1929, along with many similar incidents. The "Palestinian Post" and "Palestinian Symphony Orchestra" were established by Jews in the early 1930s.
- The Holocaust brought the extermination of six million Jews during WW II. However, the UK prevented Jews from arriving in Palestine during the war.
- The UN voted to establish the state of Israel in November, 1947. Its four Arab neighbors plus Iraq immediately launched a war of annihilation against the Jewish state.
- Simultaneously, about 750,000 Jews were expelled from Arab nations in North Africa and the Middle East. (This fact is conveniently ignored by Palestinian supporters.)
- Many Arab Palestinians were displaced during the 1947-48 Arab invasion and Israeli counterattack. Some fled because they feared war; some fled because the Arab states instructed them to temporarily move away; and some were pushed out by the Israelis during their counterattack. The Israeli position was that the Arab Palestinian residents could not return to their homes until a comprehensive peace treaty guaranteeing the right of Israel to exist was signed. The Arabs refused.
- After a series of conflicts and terrorist acts, Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt as part of the 1979 peace deal signed at Camp David. The Golan Heights were never returned to Syria as Israel viewed that as an unacceptable security risk. Anwar Sadat, president of Egypt, was murdered by Islamic militants in 1981 because he had signed a peace deal with Israel.
- In 2005 Israel withdrew from Gaza.
I agree that it's the Arab states, attempting to eradicate Israel at the moment of its birth, that are the real cause of the Arab Palestinians' misery. Let's also not forget that the Jews had just lost six million lives to the Nazis and were in no mood to let it happen again; and that many Palestinians had collaborated with the Nazis. Israel as a nation was born because no other country allowed the Jews to exist in security and peace.
Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, and others continue to seek the destruction of Israel today. It would be an act of self destruction to allow the creation of an independent Palestinian state. The West Bank is not "Palestinian" land; it's land that has been shared by Muslims, Jews, and others for millennia. It's disputed land.
Whereas the 750,000 Jews expelled from Arab states went on to establish lives in Europe, the US, and Israel, the Palestinian leadership continuously used terrorism in an effort to reach its goals. Similarly, much of the French Muslim youth prefers violence to making a serious effort to grasp the opportunities offered in France.
N.
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