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Post by johnsmith on May 20, 2023 21:07:17 GMT
I wish they would just pay it off. That's an interesting thought, though during the Clinton Era when the debt was getting paid off (Before the republicans took the surplus and instead of paying off more debt, sent it to the rich via tax cuts), there was an interesting comment by Pension Plans etc. When there is no US Govt Debt, there are no US Treasuries (of any duration) so no credit risk free returns. That creates a huge problem for investors who need credit risk free investments, like pension plans. Some investors need US Govt bonds and they need the US Govt to borrow to meet their own investing needs.
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Post by Chahta on May 20, 2023 22:50:29 GMT
Well at least the debt is discussed once a year then forgotten. I am sure they would like to eliminate the limit and put no limit on how high the debt can go. I think the debt limit should be raised to $100t and be done with it. The increasing interest on the debt might reach $100T before you know it. I wish they would just pay it off. I would be happy to pay additional taxes on income over $200K. ...Well, I mean if I had an income. The current debt cannot and therefore will never be paid. The US is worth less than what is owed.
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Post by johnsmith on May 21, 2023 0:38:11 GMT
The increasing interest on the debt might reach $100T before you know it. I wish they would just pay it off. I would be happy to pay additional taxes on income over $200K. ...Well, I mean if I had an income. The current debt cannot and therefore will never be paid. The US is worth less than what is owed. The US debt is more than the annual GDP, not more than the total wealth, assets of all of USA. This assumes that American citizens think of their personal wealth as being a part of USA, though knowing a lot of patriots, I highly doubt that. Plus most of the wealthiest USAians have other citizens ships or have bought them aka Musk, Harlan Crow, Eric Schmidt etc, so they will probably run off with their wealth to wherever. Are they “real” US patriots?
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Post by Chahta on May 21, 2023 1:29:36 GMT
The current debt cannot and therefore will never be paid. The US is worth less than what is owed. The US debt is more than the annual GDP, not more than the total wealth, assets of all of USA. This assumes that American citizens think of their personal wealth as being a part of USA, though knowing a lot of patriots, I highly doubt that. Plus most of the wealthiest USAians have other citizens ships or have bought them aka Musk, Harlan Crow, Eric Schmidt etc, so they will probably run off with their wealth to wherever. Are they “real” US patriots? Yep, stated it incorrectly. The GDP ($24t) cannot pay the debt. The US would need to sell assets to pay the debt in full. I would never consider an individual's wealth part of the US wealth, even though many politicians think they own it. Patriot is a dead word to me. Who am I (you or they as well) being patriotic to or for? The scumbags that screw its citizens each day? Did you or I cause this inflation and debt? Hell no, the scumbags did. Do the scumbags want to fix it? Hell no. It's all about them.
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Post by fred495 on May 21, 2023 2:40:29 GMT
At this time, and for lack of any better alternatives that meet my comfort level, I am keeping 100% of my portfolio in a Treasury Only MM fund and in FDIC insured CDs issued by the largest national banks until the proverbial dust settles.
Good luck,
Fred
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Post by mnfish on May 21, 2023 11:21:51 GMT
From a spreadsheet available on whitehouse.gov - Table 1.1 - SUMMARY OF RECEIPTS, OUTLAYS, AND SURPLUSES OR DEFICITS
Since 1982 government outlays have increased 741%, receipts have increased 693%. $7.283T (23%) in debt has been added in the last 3 years by 2 administrations.
And for color the SP500 has increased 2,500% since 1982.
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Post by FD1000 on May 21, 2023 12:12:57 GMT
At this time, and for lack of any better alternatives that meet my comfort level, I am keeping 100% of my portfolio in a Treasury Only MM fund and in FDIC insured CDs issued by the largest national banks until the proverbial dust settles. Good luck, Fred +1 In 2 weeks will know more.
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hondo
Commander
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Post by hondo on May 21, 2023 22:17:00 GMT
If the national debt is not gotten under control the USA will fall. These increases in the national debt can not continue. If they do, your portfolio will be worthless. Your FDIC bank insurance will fail. Your cash will be worthless. Our country must get off their butt and do something. That includes BOTH PARTIES. They are both to blame. This is just what China and Russia are hoping for. If it takes more taxes, so be it, but the increase taxes must be to PAY off the national debt, not increase spending of any kind except for defense. I fear that if we get much weaker China will attack the USA. They are just waiting for an opening.
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Post by archer on May 21, 2023 22:34:03 GMT
hondo, Do you mean China will attack the US militarily? What is the connection between the US debt and China wanting to attack? They seem like 2 not very related issues to me, but I'd be interested in whatever causal connection you see.
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hondo
Commander
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Post by hondo on May 21, 2023 23:11:05 GMT
archer: Worse case, yes. I believe China would attack the USA if they think we are weak enough and we are getting weaker each year militarily and every other way. Already we depend on them for so much of the raw materials we need. They can always come up with some excuse to justify the action. The USA must maintain our military strength and be solvent in order to remain the world leader.
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Post by roi2020 on May 22, 2023 0:31:22 GMT
We do need to keep our national debt at a reasonable level. Otherwise, interest payments on this debt will crowd out other necessary spending/investments. However, I vehemently oppose these periodic kerfuffles to raise the debt ceiling. Certain politicians commandeer debt ceiling discussions and, in effect, hold the entire country hostage. There should be no doubt whatsoever that the U.S. will pay all debts already incurred. The only other western nation that limits borrowing in absolute terms is Denmark. However, Denmark intentionally sets a high limit and avoids all the political drama we experience. Our current debt ceiling process is deeply flawed and must be abolished. U.S. spending priorities should be negotiated during the Federal Budget and Appropriations Process.
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Post by steadyeddy on May 22, 2023 1:21:46 GMT
Well at least the debt is discussed once a year then forgotten. I am sure they would like to eliminate the limit and put no limit on how high the debt can go. I think the debt limit should be raised to $100t and be done with it. Most countries (and companies) do debt financing to run their operations. It is this artificial quirk we have in the US of debt ceiling - which should be abolished.
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Post by johnsmith on May 22, 2023 1:38:45 GMT
If the national debt is not gotten under control the USA will fall. These increases in the national debt can not continue. If they do, your portfolio will be worthless. Your FDIC bank insurance will fail. Your cash will be worthless. Our country must get off their butt and do something. That includes BOTH PARTIES. They are both to blame. This is just what China and Russia are hoping for. If it takes more taxes, so be it, but the increase taxes must be to PAY off the national debt, not increase spending of any kind except for defense. I fear that if we get much weaker China will attack the USA. They are just waiting for an opening. I am not sure this is correct. People have been talking this way for 50 years and nothing has happened. The only time the debt will be a problem is when foreign investors refuse to accept US Dollars in payment for their exports. That is a very slow decline, as with most empires. The US has far more serious internal civil problems that will wreck the nation, long before the debt will. In my opinion, it’s the republicans who need to get off their butt, because they are the ones who squandered the budget surplus and have consistently cut taxes to reduce the income to pay off the “debt”. Not that the current crop of republicans offer anything. They have a negative value agenda.
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Post by Mustang on May 22, 2023 2:25:37 GMT
From what I have heard on the news, no one is talking about paying off the national debt. The argument is reducing spending back to 2022 levels.
I have to admit I do not understand this. The pandemic is over. Why does the government need to keep spending like it isn't?
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Post by roi2020 on May 22, 2023 3:59:21 GMT
"U.S. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen on Sunday said June 1 remains a 'hard deadline' for raising the federal debt limit, with the odds quite low that the government will collect enough revenue to bridge to June 15, when more tax receipts are due."
"Yellen, speaking on NBC's 'Meet the Press' program, said there would be hard choices to make about payments to Americans if Congress failed to raise the $31.4 trillion debt ceiling before Treasury ran out of cash and was forced to default."
www.reuters.com/world/us/yellen-says-june-1-is-hard-deadline-raising-debt-ceiling-2023-05-21/
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Post by Fearchar on May 22, 2023 7:50:57 GMT
From what I have heard on the news, no one is talking about paying off the national debt. The argument is reducing spending back to 2022 levels. I have to admit I do not understand this. The pandemic is over. Why does the government need to keep spending like it isn't? My impression is that some politicians have realized that they can appear to be hero's when the Gov't spends a lot of money. Other politicians have realized that excessive Gov't spending tends to be wasteful and carries long term risks. Then there are the politicians who have realized that with money it's possible to both save and spend at the same time. In other words, the adage about cake doesn't really apply to money.
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Post by steelpony10 on May 22, 2023 10:38:59 GMT
My understanding for years is most tax money is spent on national defense plus roads which are constitutionally mandated, SS which is not and service of debt. One large conservative and one large liberal program. Only one seems to create jobs. We’re all hooked on the government handouts that retirees get, farmers get, the poor get etc.
The big government expenditures can’t be adjusted much if at all for obvious reasons. The deficit number goes up with endemic and man made inflation. The percent of GDP which also goes up with the same influences isn’t that bad comparatively. Debt can be negotiated down if needed.
This is just an annual show put on by conservatives and liberals where nothing substantial will be done. I think the 14th? amendment lets the president raise the debt ceiling. No politician is ever going to tamper with constitutional mandates, SS or other governments handouts. Governments can’t hold surpluses without public outcry.
Probably in a short time it will be onto some other catastrophe. The U.S. and European Union just upped the ante in eastern Europe. Someone smells blood.
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Post by Chahta on May 22, 2023 13:04:27 GMT
My understanding for years is most tax money is spent on national defense plus roads which are constitutionally mandated, SS which is not and service of debt. One large conservative and one large liberal program. Only one seems to create jobs. We’re all hooked on the government handouts that retirees get, farmers get, the poor get etc. The big government expenditures can’t be adjusted much if at all for obvious reasons. The deficit number goes up with endemic and man made inflation. The percent of GDP which also goes up with the same influences isn’t that bad comparatively. Debt can be negotiated down if needed. This is just an annual show put on by conservatives and liberals where nothing substantial will be done. I think the 14th? amendment lets the president raise the debt ceiling. No politician is ever going to tamper with constitutional mandates, SS or other governments handouts. Governments can’t hold surpluses without public outcry. Probably in a short time it will be onto some other catastrophe. The U.S. and European Union just upped the ante in eastern Europe. Someone smells blood. This retiree "gets" nothing, except what I paid for per the scumbag government's rules. They confiscated my paycheck with the lie that I would get what is coming to me at age 65. The lie was age 66 it turned out. I don't a rat's ass what the reason was. About $690 billion is spent on servicing the debt. Good money that could be used if not for the spendthrifts that wasted most of it. Fully 30% of income taxes service the debt. Of course the Fed kicks in some revenue as do some excise taxes but they are miniscule. Of course there is no adjustment available other than taking on more debt. What could you do if your paycheck was spent using 30% to pay interest? The 14th amendment? Isn't that part of the constitution? Well "they" have trashed and twisted that document into a piece of paper to throw away.Sorry to be so harsh, but we let the government get away with far too much. So I guess the majority doesn't care.
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Post by johnsmith on May 22, 2023 14:35:57 GMT
So I guess the majority doesn't care. The country is pretty much divided 50:50 (people elected) , so I'm not sure what the "majority" is. Almost everyone here is a self-selected elite (because we invest in the stock market and have enough time / money to sit and talk about it.) usafacts.org/articles/what-percentage-of-americans-own-stock/53% from the above link. So there are 47% of Americans who don't invest directly or indirectly in the stock market. Why? because they don't make enough money. Grievances are interesting and as Buffet said (and I paraphrase) - I am lucky because my skill set were valuable in a country and age where they matter. If I was born anywhere else at another time, I might never have achieved success.
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Post by johntaylor on May 22, 2023 14:44:09 GMT
Kidding, but doesn't the Uniparty have to reach a deal with itself to continue spending on the 51st state (Ukraine) and the 52nd (illegal immigrants)?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2023 14:56:27 GMT
"Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) is an economic theory that suggests that the government could simply create more money without consequence as it's the issuer of the currency, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond. As part of this theory, the thinking is that government deficits and national debt don't matter nearly as much as we think they do" ........."Business Insider"
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Post by steelpony10 on May 22, 2023 17:51:11 GMT
Chahta , Geez, sorry I posted. I don’t share those views at all. Go to the driving range and hit something. Well the OP is about a yearly political show which will end soon enough in my opinion. It’s getting to be old news and no one is paying attention. Soon it will be on to the next clown show.
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Post by steelpony10 on May 22, 2023 17:57:35 GMT
chang Hopefully the moderator will shut this down now.
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Post by Chahta on May 22, 2023 18:34:32 GMT
steelpony10, don’t take it personally. Even though I quoted you it was not really aimed at you. This country is very screwed up right now with no clear path to make it “of and for” the people again. That is why I apologized at the end of my post. Have a good week.
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Post by Chahta on May 22, 2023 18:37:32 GMT
So I guess the majority doesn't care. The country is pretty much divided 50:50 (people elected) , so I'm not sure what the "majority" is. Almost everyone here is a self-selected elite (because we invest in the stock market and have enough time / money to sit and talk about it.) usafacts.org/articles/what-percentage-of-americans-own-stock/53% from the above link. So there are 47% of Americans who don't invest directly or indirectly in the stock market. Why? because they don't make enough money. Grievances are interesting and as Buffet said (and I paraphrase) - I am lucky because my skill set were valuable in a country and age where they matter. If I was born anywhere else at another time, I might never have achieved success. The majority is the folks that vote the same garbage in with no thought of improving the country. Not necessarily divided 50/50 by party lines. But that is their choice, so be it.
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Post by Chahta on May 22, 2023 21:52:01 GMT
Kidding, but doesn't the Uniparty have to reach a deal with itself to continue spending on the 51st state (Ukraine) and the 52nd (illegal immigrants)? One would think. But I would never encourage that. But hey, it’s only more debt. Who cares? We’ll raise the ceiling next time to cover it.
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Post by Mustang on May 23, 2023 1:34:47 GMT
"Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) is an economic theory that suggests that the government could simply create more money without consequence as it's the issuer of the currency, according to the Federal Reserve Bank of Richmond. As part of this theory, the thinking is that government deficits and national debt don't matter nearly as much as we think they do" ........."Business Insider" I have heard of that theory. Name a country where it has worked.
The consequence is inflation. If the increase in the money supply hits main street without a corresponding increase in productivity we have inflation. Too many dollars chasing too few goods. Print more money and you get higher inflation. Print more and its hyperinflation. This is a condition where people are paid daily so they can purchase the goods they need before the price goes up.
From Investopedia: "According to modern monetary theory, the only limit that the government has when it comes to spending is the availability of real resources, like workers, construction supplies, etc. When government spending is too great with respect to the resources available, inflation can surge if decision-makers are not careful...Taxes create an ongoing demand for currency and are a tool to take money out of an economy that is getting overheated, says MMT. " www.investopedia.com/modern-monetary-theory-mmt-4588060
"Modern monetary theory proponents argue that high inflation rates should not occur unless there is full employment in the economy. But, if the government spends too much, the excess demand will also cause inflation. In either case, MMT suggests that inflation can be curtailed by reducing government spending and raising taxes."
When does the government stop spending? It doesn't. Spending buys votes. Printing all the money the government wants to spend helps no one and hurts the poor and elderly the most. They have more money but less purchasing power.
Can an overheated economy be contained - yes. Equilibrium is when demand equals supply. Supply is the resources mentioned above. Inflation is when demand is greater than supply. According to MMT, the only way to control inflation is to reduce demand. The only way to control it is to punish the tax payers and other purchasers of goods and services. The key to curtailing inflation is to take money back out of the economy. Our elected government does not have the will to do this so the Federal Reserve does it by raising interest rates.
So yes, there are consequences and they can be severe.
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Post by chang on May 23, 2023 5:10:53 GMT
chang Hopefully the moderator will shut this down now. Thread locked. What did you expect when you started this thread?
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