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Post by anitya on Jan 23, 2021 1:58:38 GMT
This thread is to discuss non-US developed world equities.
With many investors becoming more active in targeting specific EM regions like Asia EM, China Region, etc. OEFs, they surely would like to pick international OEFs that do not have any EMs so the investors' work on EMs is not neutralized by an international fund that invests in both developed and emerging markets.
Which non-US developed markets OEFs do you fancy? Posters are not required to justify why they like a fund.
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Post by rac98g on Jan 23, 2021 3:46:25 GMT
For international equities, I own both VWILX and VTIRX, though I am inclined to move more into international value and reduce the size of VWILX due to growth's significant outperformance in recent years.
Also, I've owned DODFX for a long time and feel good about its long-term prospects.
These funds all have some emerging market exposure though (which I am OK with).
I am considering adding some money to DFA's new ETF's. DFAI seems to fit what you are looking for. I do not believe that it has emerging markets in it.
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Post by chang on Jan 23, 2021 3:53:47 GMT
rac98g I believe you meant VTRIX.
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Post by rac98g on Jan 23, 2021 14:00:57 GMT
You are correct, Chang! Thanks for the clarification.
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Post by javajoe on Jan 23, 2021 17:51:14 GMT
I realize it's an ETF not an OEF, but I always start with VEU and its 8 bp ER, and then have anything active convince me from there. -JavaJoe |
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Post by javajoe on Jan 23, 2021 17:54:07 GMT
I manage my aging mother's portfolio, who is fairly risk averse even for her age, but EFAV has been a good way for her to stay invested in some foreign equities without all the normal volatility as well. DYODD as always, -JavaJoe |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2021 20:20:15 GMT
Long back i used Harbor International Growth.
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sam
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Post by sam on Aug 1, 2021 0:02:26 GMT
What is wrong with IQLT? It is about 5/6 years old. During that time its return are better than both VEU and VEA and TAX cost ratio according to M* during 3 and 5 years is also lower than these. I follow several funds and IQLT is not on "the" top of that list but it is top 3 or top 5 in terms of return. It has lower Downside volatility as well.
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Post by Chahta on Aug 1, 2021 1:15:54 GMT
Thanks for the suggestion, sam. I have not seen IQLT before. I own VEU but might look to change, even though I am not high on international.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2021 1:21:43 GMT
There was a discussion on Forum recently on SCHY
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Post by steelpony10 on Aug 1, 2021 12:16:40 GMT
Does one invest outside the U.S. to increase income, spread out volatility or in lieu of bonds or cash? I’d be interested in looking at a non - U.S. Developed World equity blend OEF to compare to VTSAX the most conservative U.S. one I know.
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Post by FD1000 on Aug 1, 2021 14:42:22 GMT
Does one invest outside the U.S. to increase income, spread out volatility or in lieu of bonds or cash? I’d be interested in looking at a non - U.S. Developed World equity blend OEF to compare to VTSAX the most conservative U.S. one I know. The US market (VTSAX+QQQ+IWM) had the best simple risk-adjusted performance indexes in the last 1 thru 15 years. See 1 year performance ( link) for VSTAX=US Tot market + QQQ=Nasdaq + IWM=SC + EEM=EM + VGK=Europe....and adjust to 5+10=15 years. In regard to "increase income, spread out volatility or in lieu of bonds or cash" I still think the US should be the first choice. SCHD is an easy index to hold. For pure performance, it's about time for the US to lag, but it hasn't happened yet. It will be true some day in the future.  |
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Post by rhythmmethod on Aug 1, 2021 14:52:22 GMT
Does one invest outside the U.S. to increase income, spread out volatility or in lieu of bonds or cash? I’d be interested in looking at a non - U.S. Developed World equity blend OEF to compare to VTSAX the most conservative U.S. one I know.The US market (VTSAX+QQQ+IWM) had the best simple risk-adjusted performance indexes in the last 1 thru 15 years. See 1 year performance ( link) for VSTAX=US Tot market + QQQ=Nasdaq + IWM=SC + EEM=EM + VGK=Europe....and adjust to 5+10=15 years. In regard to "increase income, spread out volatility or in lieu of bonds or cash" I still think the US should be the first choice. SCHD is an easy index to hold. For pure performance, it's about time for the US to lag, but it hasn't happened yet. It will be true some day in the future. I'm using SCHY for this. It pays almost 4% and is highly condensed. It is supposed to be the foreign version of SCHD. I'm holding it at about 50% of my SCHD. |
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Post by steelpony10 on Aug 1, 2021 15:05:32 GMT
FD1000 , rhythmmethod , I knew about those 2. I have income covered to my satisfaction and risk tolerance. FD1000 , I’ve rode U.S. tech mostly since the late 80’s when it was an “ emerging market” like internet commerce is now. I’m just trying to get the thinking behind diversification and allocation. I’m been trying for years to find the factual reasoning for it’s benefits in today’s world besides perceived lowering risk which I question and less reward which I see. VTI (VTSAX) is diversified at 3600 holdings many with foreign sales. I’m most interested in performance. I always knew more risk led to more reward which has held true for me to date. I only think about the future when it unfolds until then I ride the current popular wave.
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Post by Chahta on Aug 1, 2021 15:19:45 GMT
I'm using SCHY for this. It pays almost 4% and is highly condensed. It is supposed to be the foreign version of SCHD. I'm holding it at about 50% of my SCHD. Been looking at SCHY but it would take a major shift for me to go 50% of SCHD. I hold 14% SCHD. Not that I doubt you but M* shows 1 distribution for SCHY of $0.0501 in June. If they do 1 each quarter like SCHD that is $0.2004 at $26 per share. Not close to 4%. How do they get 4%? |
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Post by Chahta on Aug 1, 2021 15:28:56 GMT
FD1000 , rhythmmethod , I knew about those 2. I have income covered to my satisfaction and risk tolerance. FD1000 , I’ve rode U.S. tech mostly since the late 80’s when it was an “ emerging market” like internet commerce is now. I’m just trying to get the thinking behind diversification and allocation. I’m been trying for years to find the factual reasoning for it’s benefits in today’s world besides perceived lowering risk which I question and less reward which I see. VTI (VTSAX) is diversified at 3600 holdings many with foreign sales. I’m most interested in performance. I always knew more risk led to more reward which has held true for me to date. I only think about the future when it unfolds until then I ride the current popular wave. What are your US equity holdings? VTI+QQQ only? No international at all? |
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Post by rhythmmethod on Aug 1, 2021 16:05:29 GMT
I'm using SCHY for this. It pays almost 4% and is highly condensed. It is supposed to be the foreign version of SCHD. I'm holding it at about 50% of my SCHD. Been looking at SCHY but it would take a major shift for me to go 50% of SCHD. I hold 14% SCHD. Not that I doubt you but M* shows 1 distribution for SCHY of $0.0501 in June.0. If they do 1 each quarter like SCHD that is $0.2004 at $26 per share. Not close to 4%. How do they get 4%? I hold SCHD at ~4.5% so half of that isn't much. I bot SCHY during my MATFX sell/rebalancing. I was way over LCG and SCHY seemed reasonable. I'm guesstimating yield. I think the previous dist. was bc the fund was so new. I also like the fact that many of it's holdings are 4/5*, thus not as overpriced. I'm in a hold/wait/slowly BTD phase of it. So far it seems to do as expected. Was just offering it as an option but steelpony10 was already aware of it. Time will tell. |
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Post by steelpony10 on Aug 1, 2021 17:42:47 GMT
Chahta , I never held any international investment at all. Heavy tech since the 1980’s and a few non tech dividend stocks, an income and cap gains plan. I converted 30 year old positions in dividend stocks to CEF’s during the bank crisis about half of our portfolio. Now about 1/3 due to investments in tech and growth indexes from excess income to needs cash. We have positions in VOT, VUG, VTI, 4 stocks, MSFT, AMZN, AAPL, FB and the muni. We’re headed towards VTI, VUG, CEF’s, a muni and cash. I’d be glad to add a currently lucrative growth or blended international position. My apologies to the poster. I don’t see much posting as examples of quality international OEF’s yet.
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Post by Chahta on Aug 1, 2021 18:48:10 GMT
Chahta , I never held any international investment at all. Heavy tech since the 1980’s and a few non tech dividend stocks, an income and cap gains plan. I converted 30 year old positions in dividend stocks to CEF’s during the bank crisis about half of our portfolio. Now about 1/3 due to investments in tech and growth indexes from excess income to needs cash. We have positions in VOT, VUG, VTI, 4 stocks, MSFT, AMZN, AAPL, FB and the muni. We’re headed towards VTI, VUG, CEF’s, a muni and cash. I’d be glad to add a currently lucrative growth or blended international position. My apologies to the poster. I don’t see much posting as examples of quality international OEF’s yet. I don't believe there are any that match US funds. |
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Post by chang on Aug 2, 2021 1:49:08 GMT
My apologies to the poster. I don’t see much posting as examples of quality international OEF’s yet. Can you define what you mean by "quality". This word is used ambiguously even when applied to US stocks only. GMO uses it one way, M* another, etc. Some people think it means > 10 consercutive years of ROE > 15% (Jensen), others think it means dividend growth, others think it means "wide moat", etc. If you can specify what characteristics you are looking for, you will probably get a better response. |
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Post by steelpony10 on Aug 2, 2021 10:22:32 GMT
My apologies to the poster. I don’t see much posting as examples of quality international OEF’s yet. Can you define what you mean by "quality". This word is used ambiguously even when applied to US stocks only. GMO uses it one way, M* another, etc. Some people think it means > 10 consercutive years of ROE > 15% (Jensen), others think it means dividend growth, others think it means "wide moat", etc. If you can specify what characteristics you are looking for, you will probably get a better response. Sure first I’m apologizing to the original poster for a thread that went sideways probably because I’m interested in the same subject and never found such fund OEF, ETF or index. It’s not my thread. By quality I mean mirrors the return of a developed country like the U.S. with similar governance and not overly influenced by events in the US. Since most seem to want to diversify this should be an important subject. |
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Post by FD1000 on Aug 2, 2021 23:30:12 GMT
Can you define what you mean by "quality". This word is used ambiguously even when applied to US stocks only. GMO uses it one way, M* another, etc. Some people think it means > 10 consercutive years of ROE > 15% (Jensen), others think it means dividend growth, others think it means "wide moat", etc. If you can specify what characteristics you are looking for, you will probably get a better response. Sure first I’m apologizing to the original poster for a thread that went sideways probably because I’m interested in the same subject and never found such fund OEF, ETF or index. It’s not my thread. By quality I mean mirrors the return of a developed country like the U.S. with similar governance and not overly influenced by events in the US. Since most seem to want to diversify this should be an important subject. I can give you 2 options. SPY with 40% international revenues or QQQ with 50% international revenues. This is how "You can't can eat your cake and have it too"  |
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Post by steelpony10 on Aug 2, 2021 23:34:24 GMT
FD1000 , I mentioned most U.S. companies have foreign income. Foreign companies have U.S. income. The money is in the U.S. it seems. The poster asked for a foreign OEF. Any near equal to a S&P index performance out there? I’d consider it if I could find one. Well anyway I never understood the reason for diversification or allocation. Our indexes with some duplication hold like 4000 U. S. stocks mostly and are overweighted with tech the current darlings. As you mentioned before the dummy investing method. Lol.
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Post by chang on Aug 3, 2021 0:54:16 GMT
Can you define what you mean by "quality". This word is used ambiguously even when applied to US stocks only. GMO uses it one way, M* another, etc. Some people think it means > 10 consercutive years of ROE > 15% (Jensen), others think it means dividend growth, others think it means "wide moat", etc. If you can specify what characteristics you are looking for, you will probably get a better response. ...... By quality I mean mirrors the return of a developed country like the U.S. with similar governance and not overly influenced by events in the US. Since most seem to want to diversify this should be an important subject. OK, good that I asked. That's different than what most ppl think of as "quality" in a company, stock, etc. Two comments, taking your points in reverse order. 1. Everything is influenced by events in the US. If you want to minimize correlation, go with small caps that depend upon domestic revenues, and consider Japan, Developed Asia (Taiwan, Singapore) or Australia. 2. Not exactly sure what you mean by "similar governance". If the implication is that US governance is rigorous and free of corruption, I can't fully agree. I rank US corporate governance somewhere between Singapore/Switzerland and Turkmenistan or Somalia. (The US is actually #25 out of 179 on the "Corruption Index" link). SCZ (iShares MSCI EAFE Small-Cap ETF) is the best I can come up with, but it's Europe-heavy and Asia-light. www.ishares.com/us/products/239627/ishares-msci-eafe-smallcap-etf |
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Post by anitya on Aug 3, 2021 2:32:17 GMT
...... By quality I mean mirrors the return of a developed country like the U.S. with similar governance and not overly influenced by events in the US. Since most seem to want to diversify this should be an important subject. OK, good that I asked. That's different than what most ppl think of as "quality" in a company, stock, etc. Two comments, taking your points in reverse order. 1. Everything is influenced by events in the US. If you want to minimize correlation, go with small caps that depend upon domestic revenues, and consider Japan, Developed Asia (Taiwan, Singapore) or Australia. 2. Not exactly sure what you mean by "similar governance". If the implication is that US governance is rigorous and free of corruption, I can't fully agree. I rank US corporate governance somewhere between Singapore/Switzerland and Turkmenistan or Somalia. (The US is actually #25 out of 179 on the "Corruption Index" link). SCZ (iShares MSCI EAFE Small-Cap ETF) is the best I can come up with, but it's Europe-heavy and Asia-light. www.ishares.com/us/products/239627/ishares-msci-eafe-smallcap-etfThanks for the transparency link. Hong Kong at 11 and China at 72 - I feel for HK. Taiwan at 28 is not far behind the US. As an aside, the link also gives a nice perspective of many regimes- countries around the world the US propped up and continues to prop up since WW II! Overall, excellent post, Chang. |
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Post by steelpony10 on Aug 3, 2021 11:10:19 GMT
chang , Thanks for you’re response. Definitions are indeed the hang up. I invest to make money to my risk limit. I’ll make less if risk is less to buffer a higher risk position. 25 out of 179 seems pretty good to me. I was thinking along those lines with a similar return composed of few U.S. companies. This is how I interpreted non-U.S. companies. “Developed World” has a narrow definition to me, void of EM as stated with similar political stability. Maybe you’re onto something with a Swiss-Singapore Fund. The Swiss have dealings in that area. I couldn’t find any fund open to the unwashed masses though.
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Post by anitya on Aug 3, 2021 14:33:03 GMT
Lots of multinationalals, especially US ones have their APAC HQ in Singapore, with their Sing HQ subsidiary functioning as a holding company for all APAC subsidiaries. With HK under duress Sing will gain more prominence for its role in capital markets. EWL for Switzerland has enough AUM and volumes to be investable but for international investing, I would go with active OEFs.
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Post by steelpony10 on Aug 3, 2021 15:44:20 GMT
anitya , rac98g , chang , javajoe ,@waffle , sam , Chahta , steelpony10 , FD1000 , rhythmmethod , Well since DFA was mentioned: DFCEX - EM DFGEX - World REIT DFVQX - M/S/Value International DFGFX, DFGBX - Hedged Bonds, 2 and 5 years International VTMGX - Vanguards International blend Hopefully the tickers are accurate. I do not invest outside of the U.S.
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Post by FD1000 on Aug 3, 2021 19:16:01 GMT
The "Corruption Index" With all do respect to the above when I'm looking to invest in a company I would look for one with good earnings, fundamental, dominant, good possible future to stay relevant in local and/or global competitive environment. I would also look at a country with stable Fed, currency, institution, financial reports I can trust to a degree. Or..I can make it easier...see below the 10 biggest US companies...let me know your 10 top companies from each of the other countries below, which are mostly Europeans. If it was me, I would look mostly outside Europe. Attachments:
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mrc
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Post by mrc on Aug 3, 2021 19:56:44 GMT
I currently hold
VWIGX - International Large Growth - lucky to enter at the right time during the 2020 March/April correction
VTRIX - International Large Value (not very convinced with it) - Entered last year after reducing VWIGX to increase ILV space
ARTJX - International Small Growth: Holding this fund since M* had written about the manager Rezo Kanovich, who came to Artisan from
Oppenheimer. His takeover of the fund coincided with changing the fund mandate from Smallcap to SMid Cap fund
OAKEX - International Small Value/bend: Invested in this fund to have some exposure to International Smallcap value, plus a bit
of performance chasing too. M* changed its analyst rating (not sure Gold or Silver as I don't have access to Premier) for this
mediocre fund. Hopefully, it does well going forward. I considered Avantis (ex-DFA folks) AVDV before buying OAKEX
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