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Post by mozart522 on Nov 18, 2022 19:26:54 GMT
Just a point here folks. If my memory is correct, ALL of Vanguard's actively managed funds have beaten their comparable index funds, since inception. Primarily has to do with having LOW COST actively managed funds. R48 Even Vanguard doesn't say that. First, they don't beat comparble index funds, they beat their index benchmarks. And Vanguard develops the benchmarks for their funds. Most are not investable. Vanguard's active funds are very good, however, and either their index or active funds should meet ones goals if held through thick and thin. As you point out, very low costs and a mission to continue to drive them lower. Wellington has underperformed its benchmark 8 out of the last 15 years Even primcap underperformed 7 out of 15 money.com/vanguard-active-funds-performance/
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Post by anovice on Nov 18, 2022 20:46:51 GMT
Just a point here folks. If my memory is correct, ALL of Vanguard's actively managed funds have beaten their comparable index funds, since inception. Primarily has to do with having LOW COST actively managed funds. R48 I have the data somewhere but can't put my finger on it at the moment. For the most part, Vanguard's actively managed funds have fared well against their comparable index funds and benchmark(s). It does seem that low cost has much to do with it. One notable exception is Vanguard Heath Care managed by Wellington compared to Vanguard Health Care Index. For the 10-year period from 2012-2021, Health Care Index has outperformed Health Care in 6 of the years. And if you look at those 6 years, the difference for the most part is considerable (20.50% vs 14.36%, 18.24% vs 12.67%, 5.55% vs 1.21%, 23.36% vs 19.66%, -3.33% vs -8.94%, 19.10% vs 15.17%). In the 4 years that Health Care has beaten Health Care Index, the numbers are not as pronounced (22.98% vs 21.97%, 12.71% vs 7.21%, 28.57% vs 25.42%, 19.10% vs 15.17%. 2022 year-to-date, Health Care is down 3.74% and Health Care Index is down 7.84%.
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Post by Mustang on Nov 18, 2022 22:46:56 GMT
Just a point here folks. If my memory is correct, ALL of Vanguard's actively managed funds have beaten their comparable index funds, since inception. Primarily has to do with having LOW COST actively managed funds. R48 Even Vanguard doesn't say that. First, they don't beat comparble index funds, they beat their index benchmarks. And Vanguard develops the benchmarks for their funds. Most are not investable. Vanguard's active funds are very good, however, and either their index or active funds should meet ones goals if held through thick and thin. As you point out, very low costs and a mission to continue to drive them lower. Wellington has underperformed its benchmark 8 out of the last 15 years Even primcap underperformed 7 out of 15 money.com/vanguard-active-funds-performance/I really don't know what you are talking about. The link didn't have any data. It didn't list the funds in the study. Wellington's benchmark is its category. I don't know what else would be a fair comparison. And, where did you get the idea that Wellington under performed its benchmark 8 out of the last 15 years? The link didn't say anything about it.
Year VWENX VBIAX Category 2020 10.7 16.4 11.7 VBIAX wins 2019 22.6 21.8 19.2 VWENX wins
2018 -3.4 -2.9 -5.8 VBIAX wins
2017 14.8 13.9 13.2 VWENX wins
2016 11.1 8.8 7.3 VWENX wins
2015 0.1 0.5 -1.9 VBIAX wins
2014 9.9 10.0 6.2 VBIAX wins
2013 19.8 18.1 16.5 VWENX wins
2012 12.7 11.5 11.7 VWENX wins
2011 4.0 4.3 -0.1 VBIAX wins
2010 11.0 13.3 11.8 VBIAX wins
2009 22.3 20.1 24.1 Category wins, VWENX second. 2008 -22.2 -22.1 -22.1 VBIAX wins
2007 8.5 6.3 6.0 VWENX wins
2006 15.1 11.1 11.3 VWENX wins
If I counted right its a close race: Against each other its 7 for VBIAX and 8 for VWENX. Only one time did the category beat both. VWENX beat their category 11 times. VBIAX beat their category 11 times and had one tie. Both sides of the coin can lead to success. Go with the one that helps you sleep at night.
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Post by mozart522 on Nov 18, 2022 23:23:22 GMT
Even Vanguard doesn't say that. First, they don't beat comparble index funds, they beat their index benchmarks. And Vanguard develops the benchmarks for their funds. Most are not investable. Vanguard's active funds are very good, however, and either their index or active funds should meet ones goals if held through thick and thin. As you point out, very low costs and a mission to continue to drive them lower. Wellington has underperformed its benchmark 8 out of the last 15 years Even primcap underperformed 7 out of 15 money.com/vanguard-active-funds-performance/I really don't know what you are talking about. The link didn't have any data. It didn't list the funds in the study. Wellington's benchmark is its category. I don't know what else would be a fair comparison. And, where did you get the idea that Wellington under performed its benchmark 8 out of the last 15 years? The link didn't say anything about it.
Year VWENX VBIAX Category 2020 10.7 16.4 11.7 VBIAX wins 2019 22.6 21.8 19.2 VWENX wins
2018 -3.4 -2.9 -5.8 VBIAX wins
2017 14.8 13.9 13.2 VWENX wins
2016 11.1 8.8 7.3 VWENX wins
2015 0.1 0.5 -1.9 VBIAX wins
2014 9.9 10.0 6.2 VBIAX wins
2013 19.8 18.1 16.5 VWENX wins
2012 12.7 11.5 11.7 VWENX wins
2011 4.0 4.3 -0.1 VBIAX wins
2010 11.0 13.3 11.8 VBIAX wins
2009 22.3 20.1 24.1 Category wins, VWENX second. 2008 -22.2 -22.1 -22.1 VBIAX wins
2007 8.5 6.3 6.0 VWENX wins
2006 15.1 11.1 11.3 VWENX wins
If I counted right its a close race: Against each other its 7 for VBIAX and 8 for VWENX. Only one time did the category beat both. VWENX beat their category 11 times. VBIAX beat their category 11 times and had one tie. Both sides of the coin can lead to success. Go with the one that helps you sleep at night.
Vanguard is the best source for Vanguard funds. Go to wellington, hit the performance tab, hit the annual and you will see 15 years of annual returns and on the far right, the benchmark return. You will then be able to see 8 out of the 15 years, the benchmark was higher, and not just by wellingtons's ER. You can do this for any active fund. M* category benchmarks cover too much as do their categories. Vanguards are specific to each fund. VBIAX is not comparable to Wellington.
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Post by mozart522 on Nov 18, 2022 23:40:39 GMT
Mustang, Norbert, anoviceBTW, the study R48 was likely referring to was done by ED Tower over 15 years ago. It was done before Vanguard had many of the indexes it now has so he just chose the closest there was at the time. And it was over a very short time period. Later he updated his paper and concluded that the active and passive funds were pretty much a wash, but even that was 12 years ago. For those interested, here is the original study public.econ.duke.edu/Papers//PDF/Do_Vanguard18.pdfHere is a thread where the Bogleheads question Tower directly and he responds: www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=54971
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2022 0:22:26 GMT
I think all should consider the last 12 years or so as financial manipulation not to be (hopefully) repeated.
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Post by mnfish on Nov 19, 2022 11:44:50 GMT
I think all should consider the last 12 years or so as financial manipulation not to be (hopefully) repeated.
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Post by mnfish on Nov 19, 2022 11:52:06 GMT
IMO, that seems to be a reason to take some off the table, buy some 6mo bonds and see how this shakes out. I’ve raised my cash from 8% to 15%. Still have 71% stocks so plenty at risk.
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Post by mozart522 on Nov 19, 2022 13:31:08 GMT
Apparently I'm discussing heads and you are discussing tails. Both sides of the same coin and both can lead to success. You can buy indexes and I'll stick with my three funds. Apparently their managers are in the top 30%. Yes, Wellington went from value to blend because its returns were lagging a little. But that was just before growth stocks started their decline. No one is perfect and I think that is the reason why its 1-yr return is worse than ABALX but it still beat the index fund. I'm not pushing indexes and I already said I use both. I've been with Vanguard since 1984. I'm only suggesting that is one wants to say that X active fund outperformed a certain index fund, and some do, then both funds need to have close to the same equity/ bond allocations and close to the same 9 box allocations. Since this rarely happens over time, (active funds go from value to blend for example, or have a continual higher equity allocation), comparing funds doesn't really tell us much. With Vanguard, comparing funds with the funds stated benchmark makes sense and generally shows a slight edge for active funds. So you can say "It still beat the index fund" about Wellington but you are just kidding yourself, a fair combo of VFINX and VFICX actually slightly beats Wellington over 15 years. And that is meaningless because most of those 15 years, Wellington was a Value fund. If I wanted to set up a set in and forget it portfolio, I would choose Wellesley and Wellington in some combination. And I have owned both in the past.
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